Which units should declassify its first class

[aspierail]

Which units in your opinion should declassify its first class and why.

 

[lm321412]

Which units in your opinion should declassify its first class and why.

Class 375/377 trains.

The seats are exactly the same as the ones to Standard Class...

 

[MCR247]

XC 170 first class. Mostly empty, and its pretty pointless and you don't get anything

 

[Anon Mouse]

185's, would solve a load of problems

 

[MidnightFlyer]

375s - you get full tables in standard but not in First.

TBF, probably most of the Southern region units.

 

[All Line Rover]

XC 170 first class. Mostly empty, and its pretty pointless and you don't get anything

I really liked the 170's FC the last time I travelled with XC between BHM and PBO. I had the whole compartment to myself, even though the rest of the train was standing room only for much of the journey! The journey cost less than a fiver too! I was also given free drinks and bics off the trolley.

 

[ainsworth74]

I had the whole compartment to myself, even though the rest of the train was standing room only for much of the journey!

Lucky you shame about everyone else :roll:

Personally I would remove the FC accommodation from TPEs 170s, I've never seen more than maybe one person in there (and one of those times that person was me!) but certainly during the peak those two car 170s need every seat and inch of floor space for standard class passengers.

 

[466.networkers]

I'd agree with 375s but would also add 465/9s ... 12 extra seats with no extra legroom ... You do get 2 small tables per each 2+2 seats ...

 

[strange6]

I would get rid of first class on ALL trains. Everybody should be treated as equal in my opinion; only those with good jobs or good money can afford first class!

 

[Captain Chaos]

Pretty much anything on the Southern network.

I would also get rid of 1st class on 165's. Hardly ever see anyone using the 1st class section and all you get is 2+2 seating, fixed armrests and a reading light. The only reason I haven't said 166's is because on the routes they are often used there is usually a reasonable loading on them. Otherwise 1st class on turbos is pointless.

I have travelled in 1st on a 170 and actually found it rather comfortable. Having said that I really didn't see the point of it. Standard seemed just as comfortable to me.

 

[OxtedL]

Class 375/377 trains.

The seats are exactly the same as the ones to Standard Class...

And yet people are quite happy to pay extra...

If they're subsidising my journey, I'm happy to leave them to it...

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I would get rid of first class on ALL trains. Everybody should be treated as equal in my opinion; only those with good jobs or good money can afford first class!

And because if that Standard class fares would rise...

 

[ainsworth74]

I would get rid of first class on ALL trains.

Get ready for some pretty serious fare increases then.

only those with good jobs or good money can afford first class!

I'm unemployed (student) and wouldn't have said I have access to lots of money, yet I can afford to travel first class from time to time.

 

[387star]

Why do SWT have luxury seats on trains running between Brockenhurst and Bournemouth and to Chandlers Ford? First Class is not needed!

I hate to think how crowded TPE 170s must get! They were crowded when running Brighton-Reading but Manchester-Hull is a true inter-city style operation

 

[londonmidland]

I agree about removing First Class on the XC 170's, I hardly see anybody use it when travelling from Leicester - Birmingham and when I do see people using it, they haven't even paid for it/using a standard class ticket, conductor let's them though if the trains empty. Also what about on the FCC 319's?

 

[arabianights]

forget about losing first class, we need more first class!

Now if you want to argue a lot of first class just isn't up to it, I' be the first to agree (and I especiallya gree with previous poster saying southern region stuff is a joke). For a start if it itsn't 1 + 2 seating then it's ridiculous... one reason I almost exclusively go first class is cause I'm quite a fat ******* and 2+2 just does't cut it -yes I can fit in the seat but I like to have a few inches spare and one just doesn't get that.

It's also a bit silly that first class can be so different with each opeartor and indeed with each set and yet there is a national ticket for it... just one of the many things that makes so little sense in our system.

My fav first class was GNER... NXEC made it steadily worse drip by drip but I'm looking forward to trying out the post Eureak improvements - and getting that bit fatter

 

[All Line Rover]

Lucky you shame about everyone else :roll:

Personally I would remove the FC accommodation from TPEs 170s, I've never seen more than maybe one person in there (and one of those times that person was me!) but certainly during the peak those two car 170s need every seat and inch of floor space for standard class passengers.

Yes, lucky me.

I disagree about the 170's, though. I travelled between Manchester and Hull last week, and until Leeds FIVE of the eight seats were taken. I was surprised by how busy it was!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Everybody should be treated as equal in my opinion; only those with good jobs or good money can afford first class!

I don't have a job (yet), and I couldn't say that I'm very "well off", but I can afford to travel First Class almost all the time.

 

[Failed Unit]

I would get rid of first class on ALL trains. Everybody should be treated as equal in my opinion; only those with good jobs or good money can afford first class!

I would take issue with that, on many inter-city routes you can get good deals in first class, often cheaper than flying. East Coast you can get £100 returns from Edinburgh - London off-peak (ie 1130 ex Edinburgh or 1100 ex London).

Unfortunately in life people who have more money will spend it hence why we have 5 star hotels and travel-lodge. Both are successful. I would never be able to afford £10k per night in a hotel some people will, likewise people can afford out of thier own pockets to fly first class something most people would dream of.

However IC journeys are a different kettle of fish, I would agree with you point on suburban units, but if people are prepared to pay more for a seat then let them. Although equally would someone stop commuting from Bassingstoke - London if first class was abolished? Probably not.

 

[MCR247]

But without First Class everyone elses fare would go up, so what are the benefits to having higher fares, passengers put off and passengers unhappy about not being able to eat full meals etc?

 

[jopsuk]

I'd get rid of it on everything but proper "intercity" trains. We already have TOCs that have no 1st class at all- Northern, C2C and Chiltern.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Bearing in mind that Chiltern serve Gerrards Cross and Beaconsfield (which has the highest average income outside of London at £75,000) I am very surprised that Chiltern refuse to do First, even on their LHCS services, they won't be offering the First Class areas as First Class, just 'Standard Plus' or something really stupid...

 

[Failed Unit]

Bearing in mind that Chiltern serve Gerrards Cross and Beaconsfield (which has the highest average income outside of London at £75,000) I am very surprised that Chiltern refuse to do First, even on their LHCS services, they won't be offering the First Class areas as First Class, just 'Standard Plus' or something really stupid...

Sounds very Airline - but they use economy plus to avoid Tax which is something the railways don't need to do. Maybe Chiltern don't want to go back on thier abolish 1st plans, but that is one battle the won't win against Virgin, saying that if a trolley with complementary tea and biscuit on a tubro with nicer seats is good enough for Inverness - Edinburgh then if should be good enough for the Northern Chiltern route

 

[swt_passenger]

Why do SWT have luxury seats on trains running between Brockenhurst and Bournemouth and to Chandlers Ford? First Class is not needed!

Because (failry obviously) the classes also operate on routes where First Class is definitely used, ie into Waterloo, and they aren't ever declassified because First Class fares are available and used on all those routes.

Even if it is rare to see First being used on the stoppers at Chandlers Ford, the same trains do sometimes have it occupied between Salisbury and Southampton.

 

[43167]

Why do SWT have luxury seats on trains running between Brockenhurst and Bournemouth and to Chandlers Ford? First Class is not needed!

I hate to think how crowded TPE 170s must get! They were crowded when running Brighton-Reading but Manchester-Hull is a true inter-city style operation

I think you would be surprised for the better. TPE diagram them fairly well. The single sets tend to be diagramed to pass through Leeds at the quite time of day. Then the pairs hit Leeds at just the right time, and the Hull-Manchesters have a fairly limited stopping pattern for most of the day of Brough, Selby, Leeds & Huddersfield.

 

[scotsman]

I would get rid of first class on ALL trains. Everybody should be treated as equal in my opinion; only those with good jobs or good money can afford first class!

If you have £5 you can on ScotRail at the weekends, and it's the same as the weekday service!

 

[ainsworth74]

I think you would be surprised for the better. TPE diagram them fairly well.

Not quite always though. The 16:38 Leeds - Hull seems to be regularly a 2-car unit and is always rammed. I will admit that they do a reasonable job of diagramming but it certainly isn't perfect. Of course it would help if TPE hadn't have been lumbered with running the Manchester - Scotland services then they might be able to focus the 170s entirely on Manchester - Hull.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

Bearing in mind that Chiltern serve Gerrards Cross and Beaconsfield (which has the highest average income outside of London at £75,000) I am very surprised that Chiltern refuse to do First, even on their LHCS services, they won't be offering the First Class areas as First Class, just 'Standard Plus' or something really stupid...

Removing first class from the 165s was down to overcrowding in standard and first being empty outside of the peaks. Yes, there will be people who would use first class on any route in the country if it were available and the more affluent the route the more likely you are to find high numbers of people who would travel first class. Beaconsfield and Gerrards Cross (especially Gerrards Cross! I do wonder how many of the people who use Beaconsfield station are actually from Beaconsfield, its very easy to access from the M40 and M25 so its used as a park and ride too) are prime examples of where you could get a lot of first season ticket holders, but given the journey times into Marylebone is about 20 minutes from these stations I wonder how many people who lived there would decide to travel on a standard ticket anyway? You could barely manage a free cup of tea and a bacon roll in that time, and given the relatively close distance to London it's not like you have to leave your house at the crack of dawn in order to get to the office on time and will have probably eaten breakfast before heading to the station.

The complications come from when you run DOO trains with nobody to make sure people with standard tickets don't sit in first class, and would the money made from selling more expensive first class tickets outweigh the money spent on enforcing correct use of tickets in the first class compartment? Chiltern obviously decided that it wasnt worth it and as long as the standard class is a nice environment (and I think it is) then the greater good is to go standard class only and take the handful of complaints you will get from disgruntled passengers who want a first class compartment on the chin. Putting plug sockets to charge mobiles/laptops at every seat and rolling out free WiFi all make the standard class ticket look like a better deal than it might be on trains that dont offer those facilities to standard class passengers.
As passenger numbers are up year on year since the abolishment of first class I guess the decision could be called as a correct one to make, even if there are a plethora of reasons why passengers are up other than the increased availability of standard class seats.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Not quite always though. The 16:38 Leeds - Hull seems to be regularly a 2-car unit and is always rammed. I will admit that they do a reasonable job of diagramming but it certainly isn't perfect. Of course it would help if TPE hadn't have been lumbered with running the Manchester - Scotland services then they might be able to focus the 170s entirely on Manchester - Hull.

Yeah the 2 170's on south TPE really shouldnt be there. Although i do like an occcasional ride on a 170 it really does seem pointless. I presume its a lack of 185's that has caused this?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Yep, IIRC it was because they needed 185s to cover the Manchester-Scotland diagrams, until Dec 07 every TPE route was 185 operated, I don't know where they got the 170s from though...

 

[ainsworth74]

I presume its a lack of 185's that has caused this?

Yep TPE were never originally expected to run the Manchester - Scotland but when Virgin (XC I think) decided they didn't want to do it the DfT gave it instead to TPE with no extra stock to run the service with so they've been forced to make sacrifices in terms of capacity on their core routes.

I don't know where they got the 170s from though...

Eight 170s came from SWT at the end of 2006 start of 2007 and they also got one more from Central Trains later in 2007. The units (at least the SWT at any rate) actually had first class at both cab ends but it was removed from one of the ends, this is why there is a compartment separated by doors from the rest of the train but is actually standard class (and has been refitted with 2+2 as well).