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Which trains would work better on selected routes?

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HST Power

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This isn't one of those threads where you conjugate a master plan for your own services and dream railway.

It's more a case of voicing your opinions on which trains and rolling stock would work better on selected routes and services.

For example, lets take the 1551 from Potters Bar to Peterborough. In my view, four coaches isn't enough, and it should be operated by a 365, not a 317. This service is always very busy and can be a real crush on certain days. Six to eight coaches would be far more appropriate. The 365 also seems a more spacious and comfortable train. When you get bikes and prams on the 1551, it's incredibly difficult to get around the coaches. Many 317s don't have electric doors either (they may not full stop, I don't know).

I am aware this forum has a very strong anti-Pacer fanbase, so it would also be interesting to hear what some people think would be a better alternative to Pacers.

Whether it be on just a service, on an entire route, share your views in this thread.

I'm new here, so if this has already been done, apologies.
 
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AlterEgo

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I don't hate Pacers. Given the chance I avoid them, but if it's a choice between a Pacer and a closed railway line, I know what you and I would both choose.

Personally I'm of the opinion that Transpennine should ditch a few of their 185s for 5-car Meridians. I don't know what the hill climb performance of a 222 is but for a proper Intercity service, such as the Manchester Airport to Newcastle/Middlesbrough services, I do think that more comfort and capacity is essential.

I'd also like to see LM's 150 used on the Marston Vale line replaced with a 153. They are far more comfortable. I never did understand why the operate the line with two trains, but both of different stock (they currently use 1x153 and 1x153).
 

sprinterguy

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I'd also like to see LM's 150 used on the Marston Vale line replaced with a 153. They are far more comfortable. I never did understand why the operate the line with two trains, but both of different stock (they currently use 1x153 and 1x153).
Because the busier Marston Vale services call for more capacity than a single carriage 153 can provide, but a pair of 153s would be too long for some of the platforms on the route.
 

AlterEgo

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Because the busier Marston Vale services call for more capacity than a single carriage 153 can provide, but a pair of 153s would be too long for some of the platforms on the route.

Ah right. I forgot about places like Kempston Hardwick and Bedford St John's.

I wish Southern would operate 2x377 on their peak Milton Keynes - South/East Croydon services, but I suspect this is also precluded by short platforms at places like Imperial Wharf.
 

sprinterguy

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On the subject of more suitable rolling stock for certain routes, I'm of the opinion that some of the longer distance regional or borderline Intercity services deserve longer trains more in keeping with the nature of the service they operate:

Manchester to Scotland really needs something more "Intercity" than TPEs' 185s, be it bi-mode Voyagers in the interim, or when the North West electrification is in place four or five carriage class 380 style Desiros or even an AC electric version of the 444 to provide carriages with end doors.

The Desiros are excellent trains, in all the forms they come in, but on TPEs' services they need to be longer! Why oh why did the DfT refuse to fund a fleet of sixty, 4-car 185s instead of what we ended up with. Ideally, I think that TPE North deserves a five car diesel variant of the 444 (The terminal platforms at Newcastle can just manage to squeeze a five carriage unit in Or an AC electric variant if Transpennine electrification ever went ahead.

Speaking of the DfT/SRA curtailing train orders short, if Virgin had got its' fleet of sixty two Pendolinos that were originally planned we wouldn't now have to be dealing with the farce of Voyagers operating Birmingham to Scotland services, which should definitely be Pendolino operated.

And I think it goes without saying that Pacers should be replaced by cascaded 150s, brought about either by cascades of other units brought on by electrification projects or through an injection of new two and three car 172s into the middle of the local train service hierarchy (Regular stop commuter/suburban services) where the Pacers, 150s and 153s currently sit.
 

northwichcat

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Something needs to be done about Northern Rail. 142s running 2 hour trips, while 158s run some short shuttle services in Yorkshire. Capacity is usually given as the reason for Pacers been used on long trips opposed to Sprinters, so ordering larger trains to replace Pacers should be the solution.

In addition to the TPE Scottish service mentioned, there should really be 125mph intercity stock on Manchester Airport-Newcastle and Middlesbrough.
 

NSE

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Intersting topic. I think that you're right curtailing orders like the pendo's just make no sense. I think that the plan to lengthen 458's with 460's would be a step in the right direction. Could the same be achieved with the centre cars of the 508s in the 313s? If they can't find work somewhere then that would be a decent alternative. Although actually thats a bummer, cause I think only six carriages are cleared for Moorgate? and infact some stations such as Brookmans Park and Welham Green. But ideas like that would be a step in the right direction!
 

WestCoast

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Something needs to be done about Northern Rail. 142s running 2 hour trips, while 158s run some short shuttle services in Yorkshire. Capacity is usually given as the reason for Pacers been used on long trips opposed to Sprinters, so ordering larger trains to replace Pacers should be the solution.

Northern is definitely the most neglected franchise on the network. The suburban routes the Pacers have been pushed on quite clearly would have survived without them. Other people must think Northern users are whining, but some of the conditions have to be seen to be believed.

The argument of "put up and shut up" or "pacer or nothing" is banded around, but if they were in Scotland or South East England I doubt that would go down well or be tolerated. It doesn't do anything for the image of local rail in the relevant areas either.

The Desiros are excellent trains, in all the forms they come in, but on TPEs' services they need to be longer! Why oh why did the DfT refuse to fund a fleet of sixty, 4-car 185s instead of what we ended up with. Ideally, I think that TPE North deserves a five car diesel variant of the 444 (The terminal platforms at Newcastle can just manage to squeeze a five carriage unit in Or an AC electric variant if Transpennine electrification ever went ahead.

Agreed. The 185s are great solid trains, but they should be on the already overcrowded core TPE routes, they are stretched on the Scotland routes. I would have rather seen the 180s going to TPE pre-electrification of Manchester - Preston.
 
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krisk

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Build all future dmu as 3 or 4 car minimum, whoever thought 2 car sets was a great idea needs shooting.

142s need to go asap, served a purpose but did Manchester - Blackpool South on Thursday and swapping a 185 to a 142 was a culture shock.

150s have poor capacity and are ok on short distance routes but that is all.

Voyagers should be shifted to TPE and Liverpool - Norwich. Birmingham to Manchester under the wires should not be diesel. BiMode seems to be where we are going so if we have elec, use it.

Comfort, capacity and luggage space should be used as tools to draw people in.
 

MCR247

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What a ridiculous post!

So does Stourbridge town need a 3/4 car unit?

You realise that a 5 car voyager has almost 100 seats less than 2x 158?



(According to wiki based on 182 seats per 158...)
 

Chapeltom

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I think 156s should run on the Sheffield to Manchester stoppers. 142s aren't very good at weekends and peaks as they are busy but at least cope well for bicycle storage. Given the choice of 142 or 150 I'll go for 142s but reckon it should be 156s on this line. I'd even make them go express from Marple to Manchester..
 

Batman

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The 170-153 combi trains on the Chase Line should go. I know many trains on this line are now 2 car 170's because of 153's going to other areas, but if the 170's were replaced with 172's (once they're built) on the few remianing combi-trains, that would provide a through coridor facility and would perhaps motivate staff on these trains to do their job collecting fairs.
 

Skimble19

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For example, lets take the 1551 from Potters Bar to Peterborough. In my view, four coaches isn't enough, and it should be operated by a 365, not a 317. This service is always very busy and can be a real crush on certain days. Six to eight coaches would be far more appropriate. The 365 also seems a more spacious and comfortable train. When you get bikes and prams on the 1551, it's incredibly difficult to get around the coaches. Many 317s don't have electric doors either (they may not full stop, I don't know).
No chance of it being a 6 car service.. 8 car may be possible in the future though - although I wouldn't expect it anytime soon! As for 317's not having "electric" doors.. that's a joke, right? :lol: (Unless of course you mean in between the carriages, in which case you're correct, none of them are power doors).
 

northwichcat

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You realise that a 5 car voyager has almost 100 seats less than 2x 158? (According to wiki based on 182 seats per 158...)

I think 182 seats would be a 3 car 158 with a FC section as 2 car 158s were built with 138 seats so I doubt EMT added 22 extra seats per carriage.

When 185s replaced Voyagers on Manchester-Scotland and people complained about smaller trains TPE pointed out that Voyagers only had 5 standard class seats less than a 185. However, there are two key points that don't get mentioned:
1. A 185 has much less FC accommodation meaning FC is full on some services and likely meaning people who would travel FC are travelling standard.
2. Had Manchester-Scotland gone to XC and remained Voyager operated there would have been an increase in seats through the removal of the shop.

On the same basis comparing EMT's standard class only 158s with Voyagers with a mix of standard and FC isn't a good comparison.

Of course, more than 50% of EMT's Liverpool-Norwich services are 2 car between Liverpool and Nottingham and they are all booked for 2 car between Nottingham and Norwich.
 
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sprinterguy

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On the same basis comparing EMT's standard class only 158s with Voyagers with a mix of standard and FC isn't a good comparison.

Of course, more than 50% of EMT's Liverpool-Norwich services are 2 car between Liverpool and Nottingham and they are all booked for 2 car between Nottingham and Norwich.
When replacing the 158s on Liverpool-Norwich with Voyagers is being discussed then it is a relevant comparison: I would like to see rolling stock of a "more Intercity" nature on the Liverpool to Norwich route, but if that new rolling stock doesn't offer the same or an increased amount of seating (Once the LM Sprinter cascade finally gets rolling then the majority of Liverpool to Norwich trains will be four car as far as Nottingham) then it's not a good idea. A Class 221 has 216 standard seats while a pair of EMT 158s offer 292. Even when you take first class seating on the Voyager into consideration it's still a markedly smaller total.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The 170-153 combi trains on the Chase Line should go. I know many trains on this line are now 2 car 170's because of 153's going to other areas, but if the 170's were replaced with 172's (once they're built) on the few remianing combi-trains, that would provide a through coridor facility and would perhaps motivate staff on these trains to do their job collecting fairs.
Yeah that's definitely a good idea. If LM could lose all of its' 153s as well as the 150s following the delivery of the 172s then it would be a good thing. The Chase line has three all day diagrams plus a fourth peak time diagram, calling for 1 x 170/6, 2 x 170/5+153 and 1 x 170/5.
 
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317666

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...except the 317/7s, which have powered doors between the coaches. Whether they work or not is another matter though :lol:
 

northwichcat

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When replacing the 158s on Liverpool-Norwich with Voyagers is being discussed then it is a relevant comparison

EMT's 158s they have refurbished them to have a lot of standard class seats. To compare with Voyagers you should be looking at how many seats they would have if the same type of refurbishment.

Currently the Virgin 5 car Voyager layout is:
Coach A: 42 seats standard class
Coach B: 68 seats standard class
Coach C: 68 seats standard class
Coach D: 58 seats standard class + shop
Coach E: 26 FC seats + kitchen
http://www.virgintrains.co.uk/assets/pdf/global/seating-plan.pdf

So it's actually 236 standard class seats.

Suppose Coach E is refurbished to be the same as Coach A - that would make it 278 standard class seats. If we do a XC and replace the shop with extra seats then it's 288 standard class seats. If we go for 2 toilets in total then we should get up to 320 seats.

So, we can get more seats than on a pair of EMT 158s and still have more table seats than EMT have.
 

sprinterguy

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Good point, I miscalculated the number of seats on a Voyager, it is indeed 236. You make a good case for the suitability of Voyagers on the route on the grounds of seating capacity, but only with the requirement for a fairly extensive refurbishment to alter their current condition.
 

LE Greys

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Send the stored Class 90s to East Coast, along with any available coaching stock and DVTs for them to work with. This should release sufficient HSTs to transfer to XC and take over the core NE-SW route. Also, assuming Virgin get the ICWC franchise and their full quota of extra Pendys, add their 21 221s. This should release quite a few Voyagers for various purposes. I would like to see tilting trains on the Manchester-Scotland services for instance, which would release a few 185s, hopefully allowing TPX to run them in pairs on a more regular basis. Ideally, we might see 220s diagrammed on Newcastle-Manchester services as well.

At a lower-speed level, I'd like to see all the Scotrail 158s swapped for either 156s or 170s. 158s are designed for the mixed-speed traffic of the Midlands and North of England, making 90 mph dashes on main lines, then slowing down for regular stops on local lines. As a result, I've always thought the design was a fudge, a jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none unit that is suited neither to the long, slow Far North Line or the comparatively-quick commuter routes around the Central Belt. Inverness would thus receive any 156s displaced by electrification further south (probably the fourteen SPT units) along with any six 170s displaced for the same reason. All 48 Scotrail 158s would be split, roughly evenly, between Northern, EMT and FGW. This, for example, allows the Northern ones to take over the Settle-Carlisle entirely, cascading 156s onto the Leeds-Morecambe route. The idea is that routes such as Leeds-Morecambe and Newcastle-Carlisle would only ever be operated by bogie stock, reducing Pacer journeys down to one hour or less. On FGW, the extra stock would simply be absorbed in increased peak capacity, although I'd like to see 158s on the Heart of Wessex with an increase in service frequency to hourly. Two main-line dashes are involved here, Bath-Bristol and Westbury-Castle Cary, both with stops in the middle, so the extra speed would be useful. EMT could split their new units up and add them to their existing units as centre cars.

On the electric side, I'd like to see the 460s back on GatEx, the 442s back on Waterloo-Weymouth and the 444s on Waterloo-Portsmouth. Not just because I want the Wessex units back, that would allow main-line stock to come back on the Portsmouth Direct. What's more, the displaced 450s could replace the 458s, which could be split up and added to the 460s (if that's possible). With overhead units, I'd like to see the 317s phased out on FCC, replaced by any spare 321s from NXEA after the 379s come in. They would probably work quite well as temporary replacements for DMUs on any line due for electrification, but we really need a new standard 75 mph EMU to replace all the PEP-derived designs, along with 455s and 456s. Loads of extra 378s would be one choice.
 

DarloRich

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I will tell you what does work well 1 x 150 and 1 x 153 on the bletchley - bedford line

that is the reason LM are keeping those units nothing else except a pacer will fit without lots of extra platform/ signal relocation works
 

tbtc

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Send the stored Class 90s to East Coast, along with any available coaching stock and DVTs for them to work with. This should release sufficient HSTs to transfer to XC and take over the core NE-SW route

Is it true (as I saw here recently) that there are four EC HST diagrams a day which are entirely under the wires?

Send the stored Class 90s to East Coast, along with any available coaching stock and DVTs for them to work with. This should release sufficient HSTs to transfer to XC and take over the core NE-SW route

At a lower-speed level, I'd like to see all the Scotrail 158s swapped for either 156s or 170s

YES!

The planned swap of Central 156s for ScotRail 158s should have happened. 158s are wasted on routes like the Far North (whilst we have 156s on routes like Liverpool - Blackpool)...

According to my maths, the Scottish electrification should free up about 50 DMUs, so I'd hope that the 158s head south in a few years...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I will tell you what does work well 1 x 150 and 1 x 153 on the bletchley - bedford line

that is the reason LM are keeping those units nothing else except a pacer will fit without lots of extra platform/ signal relocation works

You know I am in favour of Pacer replacement on the Bletchley line (plus maybe Coventry - Nuneaton) as it'd mean LM could get rid of all their 150/153s.

A tiny fleet of Pacers at LM wouldn't be any worse than a tiny fleet of 150/153s, after all...

The Bletchley line would be perfect - nothing else to crash into there
 

LE Greys

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Is it true (as I saw here recently) that there are four EC HST diagrams a day which are entirely under the wires?

So shake up the diagrams and have some loco exchanges at Waverley. It's perfectly possible, provided the electric loco is at the south end (meaning the east end at Waverley) so that it is possible to run off into one of the eastern bays without blocking up a second through platform. This takes ten minutes if done smoothly, which does not add a second to the timetabled stop. The only problem is that it makes loco changes at King's Cross a bit tricky. However, you now have five extra diagrams (the Leeds-Aberdeen-Leeds, the Edinburgh-Aberdeen-Edinburgh, both King's Cross-Aberdeen round trips and the Highland Chieftain) electric hauled. Quite a few 67s are currently available, and both 91s and 90s can work fine with MkIVs and MkIIIs.

So that's nine HST diagrams per day replaced. Is there any point in keeping the rest, or perhaps they should do a unit swap with GC. On thinking about that, it might be an idea to place all the 180s and the remaining HSTs in a common pool, so that GC, HT and EC could all use them. Perhaps they should call them East Coast Joint Stock.
 

Rhydgaled

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The big one for me is the daytime Fishguard boat train. Class 150s are pretty much inner-suburban units, yet westbound this service calls only at Llanelli, Whitland and Fishguard Harbour and, apart from these, the only place served on the return journey is Carmarthen. A pair of 153s, or a 155 or 156, would be much better suited. Better yet, a 158 would be able to make use of the >75mph linespeeds between Cardiff and Britton Ferry and perhaps therefore be able to call at Bridgend and Port Talbot without adding to the journey time.

On the subject of more suitable rolling stock for certain routes, I'm of the opinion that some of the longer distance regional or borderline Intercity services deserve longer trains more in keeping with the nature of the service they operate:

Manchester to Scotland really needs something more "Intercity" than TPEs' 185s, be it bi-mode Voyagers in the interim, or when the North West electrification is in place four or five carriage class 380 style Desiros or even an AC electric version of the 444 to provide carriages with end doors.

What's the calling pattern likely to be on Machester - Scotland after re-routing to make use of the new wires? If the stops aren't to dense, I think it should be transfered to InterCity WestCoast along with electrification from Crewe to Chester and an order of 7-car or 11-car Pendolinos. If 11-car, they would go on the main routes to cascade the 9-car sets to London - Chester/Holyhead/Bangor (dragged by 57s from Chester) and Birmingham/Manchester - Scotland. If 7-car, they would go directly onto the routes mentioned. That would free up all the ICWC 221s which would go to XC, cascading shorter 220s to Great Western for Paddington - Costswolds (where they would be lengthened to 5-car by adding a pantograph car).

If Manchester - Scotland has too many stops, then I think an AC version of the 444 or 5-WES would be the way to go. Perhaps they could combine with another unit to provide Liverpool - Scotland services too, then they could split and serve both Edinbourgh and Glasgow. There would be so much ecconomy of scale with the Pendo order though, which would still be necessary for Birmingham - Scotland.

And I think it goes without saying that Pacers should be replaced by cascaded 150s, brought about either by cascades of other units brought on by electrification projects or through an injection of new two and three car 172s into the middle of the local train service hierarchy (Regular stop commuter/suburban services) where the Pacers, 150s and 153s currently sit.
Well, as I said before 150s are inner-suburban units, as are Pacers (well, they are at least as much that as they are anything else, which isn't saying very much). The trobble is, as some have mentioned, they aren't always deployed on such routes. Idealy, suitable electric stock would replace them, if the wires can't be found:
  • Pacers on inner suburban routes should be replaced by 150s or Turbostars
  • Pacers on outer suburban routes should be replaced by Turbostars or 150s
  • Pacers on long distance (regional express) routes should be replaced with 156s, 155s, 153s or 158

There is one possible exception to this, because the 165s have fairly constrained route availability. The following services could perhaps be worked by 165s:
  • Newcastle - Chathill (increased to every 3 hours)
  • Newcastle - Ashington (every 3 hours)
  • Newcastle - Blyth (every 3 hours, hence covering the hourly Morpeth service)
  • Darlington - Saltburn (Half-Hourly)
  • Darlington - Middlesbrough (Half-Hourly)
  • Newcastle - Saltburn (Hourly)
  • Sunderland - Saltburn (Hourly)

My estimate is that lot would require 19 165s in service per day. Assuming FGW's Reading - Basingstoke/Redhill/Gatwick services are formed of single 166s, my estimate is that they need 13 units per day.

Great Western would retain:
  • 15x 2-car 165s for the unwired Thames valley branches and, if the route can be cheaply made available to them, Bristol - Taunton and perhaps the Severn Beach line (the Cardiff - Bristol bit of Cardiff - Taunton would go over to electric traction) and all 21 166s (allowing some Reading and Thames valley trains to be lengthened)

Chiltern would have:
  • All 17 3-car 90mph 165s from Great Western
  • Their own 11 3-car 75mph 165s
  • 11 of their 2-car 75mph 165s

That would give Northen:
  • 17x 2-car 75mph 2-car 165s from Chiltern
  • 5x 2-car 90mph 165s from Great Western (primarily for the services via Morpeth)
  • They would also need 8 156s in the Newcastle area to run an hourly Bishop Auckland - Darlington shuttle and Carlise - Newcastle. They would also need some more to run Middlesbrough - Whitby/Nunthorpe (I tried to make services from Bishop Auckland run through in place of some of the 165 services but the single line to Whitby threw my timetabling attempts). After those units are added, they probably wouldn't have enough 156s left to run the Newcastle - Hexham services so that would be a pair of Pacers. Still, cutting Pacers in the area from many down to 2 is pretty good going.

So shake up the diagrams and have some loco exchanges at Waverley. It's perfectly possible, provided the electric loco is at the south end (meaning the east end at Waverley) so that it is possible to run off into one of the eastern bays without blocking up a second through platform. This takes ten minutes if done smoothly, which does not add a second to the timetabled stop. The only problem is that it makes loco changes at King's Cross a bit tricky. However, you now have five extra diagrams (the Leeds-Aberdeen-Leeds, the Edinburgh-Aberdeen-Edinburgh, both King's Cross-Aberdeen round trips and the Highland Chieftain) electric hauled. Quite a few 67s are currently available, and both 91s and 90s can work fine with MkIVs and MkIIIs.

So that's nine HST diagrams per day replaced. Is there any point in keeping the rest, or perhaps they should do a unit swap with GC. On thinking about that, it might be an idea to place all the 180s and the remaining HSTs in a common pool, so that GC, HT and EC could all use them. Perhaps they should call them East Coast Joint Stock.
I say use the 67s to drag IEPs beyond Edinburgh (and perhaps to Hull, Lincon and Harrogate too) they don't have TDM anyway.

Use 47s (which can in theroy have TDM fitted, since the 47/7s did/do, although the wrong sort) and the IC225s to get beyond Swansea (hopeing the wires get that far). Rather than shutting Landore (IEP plans are just for overnight stabling in the sidings aren't they?) use it as the depot for 91s, allowing them to be on the London end of the train.
 

sprinterguy

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Is it true (as I saw here recently) that there are four EC HST diagrams a day which are entirely under the wires?
Yes: Diagrams EC002, EC003, EC007 and EC008 are all HSTs running entirely under the wires Monday-Friday, as are EC002 and EC009 on a Saturday:
http://www.125group.org.uk/diagrams-NXEC.pdf
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
So shake up the diagrams and have some loco exchanges at Waverley. It's perfectly possible, provided the electric loco is at the south end (meaning the east end at Waverley) so that it is possible to run off into one of the eastern bays without blocking up a second through platform. This takes ten minutes if done smoothly, which does not add a second to the timetabled stop. The only problem is that it makes loco changes at King's Cross a bit tricky. However, you now have five extra diagrams (the Leeds-Aberdeen-Leeds, the Edinburgh-Aberdeen-Edinburgh, both King's Cross-Aberdeen round trips and the Highland Chieftain) electric hauled. Quite a few 67s are currently available, and both 91s and 90s can work fine with MkIVs and MkIIIs.
Where's the additional rolling stock going to come from? East Coast already have 26 out of 30 (Out of 29 at the moment as they go through repaint) 225s in service each day, and I'm not sure it would be possible to tighten up the diagrams sufficiently (presumably mainly by reducing turn around times at the Cross) for the 225s to cover the four HST diagrams entirely under the wires without it affecting timekeeping. Especially with how often the wires are down at the south end of the ECML anyway.

Porterbrook have enough spare loco hauled mark 3s available to make up three 9 carriage rakes (And more than enough DVTs): 21 TSOs, 3 FOs and 3 RFMs (Plus one off lease at Crown Point apparently), but the rest is primarily in the ownership of Cargo-D and (albeit largely unused at the moment, presumably intended for the Chiltern contract) DB. IIRC the original plan for the East Coast Eureka timetable was for five class 90+mark 3 rakes, so presumably if it is still possible for East Coast to source sufficient stock then it is best to concentrate on replacing the four HSTs running entirely under the wires before thinking about the added complexity of switching from electric to diesel at Edinburgh on the services running north of there.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I do agree that I hope to see Scotrails' 158s moving down to England once the Scottish electrification projects are well advanced. I would love to see solely 158s and 156s operating out of Heaton depot, rather than the current mix of 156s and 142s. A few 156s would have to be transferred from Newton Heath to Heaton to make up the numbers in order to fully replace 142s (Unless there was a greater number of 158s allocated than there are currently 156s), which would be easily done by some of NHs' 156s being displaced by 158s there.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
You know I am in favour of Pacer replacement on the Bletchley line (plus maybe Coventry - Nuneaton) as it'd mean LM could get rid of all their 150/153s.

A tiny fleet of Pacers at LM wouldn't be any worse than a tiny fleet of 150/153s, after all...

The Bletchley line would be perfect - nothing else to crash into there
Offering more seats than a single 153 and a bit less than a 150, but without the need to retain two different classes of Sprinter. And as you say, the route is completely self contained. It's perfect Pacer territory.

I wonder how long it would be before there were calls clamouring for the necessary platform extension works to be done on the route, and for them to actually get done all of a sudden, to accept 172s if a Pacer or two were to be introduced on the route. <D
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What's the calling pattern likely to be on Machester - Scotland after re-routing to make use of the new wires? If the stops aren't to dense, I think it should be transfered to InterCity WestCoast along with electrification from Crewe to Chester and an order of 7-car or 11-car Pendolinos. If 11-car, they would go on the main routes to cascade the 9-car sets to London - Chester/Holyhead/Bangor (dragged by 57s from Chester) and Birmingham/Manchester - Scotland. If 7-car, they would go directly onto the routes mentioned. That would free up all the ICWC 221s which would go to XC, cascading shorter 220s to Great Western for Paddington - Costswolds (where they would be lengthened to 5-car by adding a pantograph car).
I'd say order a new batch of eleven carriage Pendos, which allows the twenty one remaining nine car units to very neatly replace the twenty one Super Voyagers that Virgin operate. Much better for diagramming units if there are only two lengths of unit to deal with rather than 7, 9 and 11 car Pendolinos. And all the currently Pendolino operated routes would be eleven car, which further simplifies the possible diagramming complications that will arise when the thirty one existing Pendolinos are lengthened.
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There is one possible exception to this, because the 165s have fairly constrained route availability. The following services could perhaps be worked by 165s:
  • Newcastle - Chathill (increased to every 3 hours)
  • Newcastle - Ashington (every 3 hours)
  • Newcastle - Blyth (every 3 hours, hence covering the hourly Morpeth service)
  • Darlington - Saltburn (Half-Hourly)
  • Darlington - Middlesbrough (Half-Hourly)
  • Newcastle - Saltburn (Hourly)
  • Sunderland - Saltburn (Hourly)

My estimate is that lot would require 19 165s in service per day. Assuming FGW's Reading - Basingstoke/Redhill/Gatwick services are formed of single 166s, my estimate is that they need 13 units per day.

Great Western would retain:
  • 15x 2-car 165s for the unwired Thames valley branches and, if the route can be cheaply made available to them, Bristol - Taunton and perhaps the Severn Beach line (the Cardiff - Bristol bit of Cardiff - Taunton would go over to electric traction) and all 21 166s (allowing some Reading and Thames valley trains to be lengthened)

Chiltern would have:
  • All 17 3-car 90mph 165s from Great Western
  • Their own 11 3-car 75mph 165s
  • 11 of their 2-car 75mph 165s

That would give Northen:
  • 17x 2-car 75mph 2-car 165s from Chiltern
  • 5x 2-car 90mph 165s from Great Western (primarily for the services via Morpeth)
  • They would also need 8 156s in the Newcastle area to run an hourly Bishop Auckland - Darlington shuttle and Carlise - Newcastle. They would also need some more to run Middlesbrough - Whitby/Nunthorpe (I tried to make services from Bishop Auckland run through in place of some of the 165 services but the single line to Whitby threw my timetabling attempts). After those units are added, they probably wouldn't have enough 156s left to run the Newcastle - Hexham services so that would be a pair of Pacers. Still, cutting Pacers in the area from many down to 2 is pretty good going.
I'd say:
Northern: 20 x 2 car 165/1 from FGW, working out of Heaton depot on the North East services.

FGW: Retain the twenty one 166s for the remaining Thames Valley diesel branches (I understand that there may be some platform length issues for three car units on one of the branches though), and 17 x 3 car 165/1 for use in the Bristol area, allowing FGWs eight class 143 Pacers to go to ATW.

If a few 156s have to be retained at Heaton due to lack of 165s and due to the Network Turbos not being cleared for certain branches then so be it, but there'd certainly be no need for any more Pacers at Heaton (Except for the Yorkshire diagrams around Sheffield, which would be much better worked out of Neville Hill).

At a push, to make Heaton depot entirely 165 worked, I'd also transfer Chilterns' eleven 3 car 165s to Heaton, in exchange for Chiltern getting some/all of FGWs three carriage 165/1s, although this would mean that FGW didn't benefit from the Oxford electrification.
 
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shaun

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In an ideal world...

442s back on Waterloo - Weymouths, some staying with SC for an hourly Brighton 'Belle' Express.

460s back on Gatwick Express.

444s on Waterloo - Poole/Weymouth stoppers/Portsmouth fasts

HSTs on all Plymouth - Edinburgh services, cascaded from FGW and EMT...

220s from cascade above given to EMT and turned into Meridians and FGW running shorter-distance Paddington - Oxford/Cotswold/Exeter semis. Again, these will be refurb'd to look like Meridians or better still...Adelantes.

185s replaced with an AC version of the 444s (344s?).
 

tbtc

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Location
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Yes: Diagrams EC002, EC003, EC007 and EC008 are all HSTs running entirely under the wires Monday-Friday, as are EC002 and EC009 on a Saturday:
http://www.125group.org.uk/diagrams-NXEC.pdf

Thanks for the link. I'd seen reference to four diagrams a day, but without a link so wasn't sure whether to accept it. Hmm, our HSTs a day (which presumably needs five trains to cover) would double the amount of HSTs at XC if only they could be freed up. Hmm, is it getting too silly to suggest that East Coast order half a dozen 390s if there's twenty-odd Pendolini ordered for the WCML franchise - it'd be cheaper to order as a follow-on order after all. Maybe even an extra unit to replace the XC Glasgow service?

Offering more seats than a single 153 and a bit less than a 150, but without the need to retain two different classes of Sprinter. And as you say, the route is completely self contained. It's perfect Pacer territory.

I wonder how long it would be before there were calls clamouring for the necessary platform extension works to be done on the route, and for them to actually get done all of a sudden, to accept 172s if a Pacer or two were to be introduced on the route. <D

I reckon it'd take until the Tuesday lunchtime for the locals to start rioting! :lol:

Seriously though, self contained branches which get single 153s would be okay for Pacers (maybe dump sum on NXEA too?) - if LM get all the new 172s and 350s then only fair that they take their share of "heriatage" DMUs too ;)

I'd say order a new batch of eleven carriage Pendos, which allows the twenty one remaining nine car units to very neatly replace the twenty one Super Voyagers that Virgin operate. Much better for diagramming units if there are only two lengths of unit to deal with rather than 7, 9 and 11 car Pendolinos. And all the currently Pendolino operated routes would be eleven car, which further simplifies the possible diagramming complications that will arise when the thirty one existing Pendolinos are lengthened

Makes perfect sense to me.
 
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