Which Parent Company Has Ordered The Most...

[tbtc]

In the NXEA thread, Arriva's lack of "investment" in new trains was mentioned. They haven't ordered any new trains for ATW or XC (though they have reintroduced HSTs and refurbished some DMUs etc).

They didn't order the 333s which they ran on ATN (I can't remember whether Arriva took over MTL before/after the 333s were introduced in 2000, but they were certainly ordered under Northern Spirit).

Then again, Sea Containers, SercoNed and Prism never ordered any new stock either (IIRC), so it's not just Arriva.

Virgin would come out of any comparison very well - dozens of Pendolini and Voyagers, essentially a whole new fleet for their two franchises.

National Express ordered dozens of 170s for Scotrail/ Central/ Midland Mainline, as well as several 222s for Midland Mainline, 379s for NXEA. Were the LM 350s also ordered under National Express?

Stagecoach have a good record too, as well as taking 49% of the credit for the Virgin order they've ordered several 444/450/458...

First Group have a mixed bag, some small DMU fleets (175/180), a share in the 185 fleet (jointly with Keolis), the Scottish 380s etc. Were the Hull Trains 222s ordered by First or by Anglia? If by Anglia then they must come out with a pretty good record for such a small fleet/time period, with the 170s ordered.

Can anyone do the figures for Go Ahead?

(Small Print: obviously TOCs are only renting trains, they don't pay the full costs, there's often PTE/DfT involvement, a refurbished train can be just as good as a new one, operators who inherit a modern fleet like Arriva XC don't need to buy new trains etc)

 

[MCR247]

350/1s and all 222/0s were ordered by NatEx

 

[northwichcat]

I was going to say Prism but I just checked and it turns out they ordered the 74 x Class 357s, so they've actually ordered more new trains than MTL who were behind Northern Spirit.

However, Valley Lines is almost certainly the worse franchise of all time for stock investment. Not only did they not get additional stock, they couldn't afford the costs of running a 150 fleet, so had to swap most of them for Pacers.
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350/1s and all 222s were ordered by NatEx

The 350/1s were originally ordered by SWT as 450s but became dual voltage 350s for Silverlink/Central due to insufficient funds for platform extensions in the SWT area.

The 222/1s were ordered after the MML 222s. The 221/1s were ordered by Hull Trains around the same sort of time as the First buyout, even though the rebranding to First Hull Trains didn't follow immediately.

 

[tbtc]

I was going to say Prism but I just checked and it turns out they ordered the 74 x Class 357s

I did not realise that, apologies to Prism, I assumed that National Express had ordered the 357s.

That does change things then.

 

[150222]

To be fair SercoNed/Abellio (Northern) had wanted to replace all Northern's pacers with new China -built DMU's. The D(A)FT wouldn't let them of course. They even placed 12 in store until FGW got them.


With Valley Lines I thought that it was the other way around? (I.E they swapped pacers for 150's with First North Western/Arriva Trains Northern/Scotrail).

 

[Lampshade]

To be fair SercoNed/Abellio (Northern) had wanted to replace all Northern's pacers with new China -built DMU's. The D(A)FT wouldn't let them of course. They even placed 12 in store until FGW got them.

There were a few reasons for putting them in store, it was anticipated at the time that Pacers would be imminently withdrawn and Northern would receive new DMUs, but the order never went through as they decided on electrification. Also at the time, Northern's franchise agreement stipulated they should be taking steps to reduce their fleet size hock:

 

[Aictos]

First brought out the owners of Hull Trains in 2005, when the 170s were transferred to First Scotrail and brand new 222s were ordered by First to replace them.

 

[87015]

I did not realise that, apologies to Prism, I assumed that National Express had ordered the 357s.

That does change things then.

Prism ordered the 357/0s, NX ordered the 357/2s - Prism were planning on keeping a number of 312s on for peak hour duties, which you can see the logic in.

 

[northwichcat]

There were a few reasons for putting them in store, it was anticipated at the time that Pacers would be imminently withdrawn and Northern would receive new DMUs, but the order never went through as they decided on electrification. Also at the time, Northern's franchise agreement stipulated they should be taking steps to reduce their fleet size hock:

You're getting a bit mixed up there. The only Pacer replacement order proposed was the CSRE option that Northern proposed and DfT rejected. The tender for 200+ DMU carriages for Northern, TPE and FGW was for extra capacity not replacement of existing carriages - this was after the 12 x stored 142s had been put back in to service.

In the early days of the franchise Metro and Merseytravel were aware that extra 158s would be available following the introduction of new trains on TPE, so they provided funding for additional trains. In total Northern were supposed to get around 30 x 158s and withdraw a number of the smaller 142s, which could have still been used for strengthening but no-one funded them. However, Northern never got all the proposed 158s with Scotrail getting their paws on some of them.

 

[sprinterguy]

With Valley Lines I thought that it was the other way around? (I.E they swapped pacers for 150's with First North Western/Arriva Trains Northern/Scotrail).

ATW did receive 150s from Scotrail when Scotrail got shot of them all, but that came later. Was it about 2004-ish? Valley Lines sent 150268-277 to Northern Spirit in about 1999 and in return were sent 142083 and 142085-94.

And then another swap occured for some reason in 2002 where the thoroughly knackered Welsh 142s that had been ragged up and down the Welsh Valleys for a few years were sent back to the north east in exchange for many of Northern Spirits'/ATNs' relatively good quality 142s. I never worked out what that was all about.

In fact, I'm of the opinion that digging back into the unit reallocations that occured in the early days of privatisation gets a bit too complicated for my liking. I think that can be applied to this whole thread: As is already becoming evident, it's quite hard to pick apart which parent company has been responsible for ordering what, as what looks like one homogenous fleet of trains could have been ordered in separate batches under two separate franchisees, or ordered by one and then delivered under the auspices of another!
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They didn't order the 333s which they ran on ATN (I can't remember whether Arriva took over MTL before/after the 333s were introduced in 2000, but they were certainly ordered under Northern Spirit).

The 333s definitely operated under Northern Spirit for a while. The fourth carriages will have been added in ATN days though; I believe the Northern Spirit franchise ended in February 2001.

EDIT: But hang on, it looks like Arriva took over the franchise before the actual expiry date, in 2000. So the 333s probably were introduced under Arriva management in that case.

 

[cj_1985]

lets be fair here...
its all good and well looking at statistics about how many units or carraiges a company has ordered...

but we all know the UK railway is alot more complex than that...

take for example connex...
they ordered the majority/all of the class 375s for South Eastern Services... and the first batches of class 375 (later to be come class 377) units for South Central... before Go-Via/Go-ahead took over operations at South Central/Southern
as well as all the class 376s... which were introduced by SouthEastern after Connex was given its marching orders...

The class 350/1s were originally part of the Stagecoach/SWT class 450 order... but the order was changed by SRA/DfT for operation by Central and Silverlink.. as such do you count that batch as Stagecoach, SRA/DfT or Nat Ex?

also worth remembering that the majority of the units that have been ordered were replacements for ageing Mk1 based stock... and those units that have been ordered to displace, or augment existing fleets have been restricted by the SRA/DfT... meaning that all the figures that are quoted.. are just the number of units/carraiges that the companies like Go-Via, First, Nat EX etc were ALLOWED to order.. as opposed to the number that they WANTED to order

valid points have already been made, pointing out Northerns desire to order units to replace pacer units...

First/Kelios wanted to order more class 185 units than they were allowed, they were also reported to have wanted to order additional intermediate carraiges to help ease crowding on services...

Virgin/Stagecoach were very vocal about wanting to order enough class 390 carraiges to increase the entire fleet to 11 carraiges rather than just part of the fleet...

and thats before delving into virgins desire to order additional voyager intermediate carraiges, for SWT to order extra Desiro units and intermediate carraiges etc etc


Also worth remembering that the majority of new stock orders have been franchise commitments... and so stock would most likely have had to be ordered whether by Nat Ex, First, Arriva, Stagecoach, Virgin or Go-Via etc

 

[northwichcat]

Relating to cj_1985's points.

TPE proposed 56 x 3 car 185s with the option to add 4th carriages if passenger numbers rose. Due to the 170s at SWT becoming surplus to requirements that order was cut to 51 x 3 car 185s with the SWT 170s supposed to more than make up for the loss of 5 x 185s. However, TPE have not only had rising passenger numbers they've also had to take on the Scottish services, so really there is no valid reason for TPE not getting extra carriages when other operators have got additional capacity.

On the other hand 450s were ordered for SWT on the assumption that platforms would be lengthened, when funds were ruled out for that they would have had 450s surplus to requirements.

What did TPE and SWT do differently? Not a lot. Neither got the number of carriages they were expecting but the changes were made at different stages of the procurement of new carriages.

 

[HSTEd]

As for SeaContainers never ordering new stock (they were GNER right?), they did have an almost brand new electric fleet and a fairly spry (second newest HSTs after the XC ones?) fleet of HSTs to work with.

And was it NXEC or the state that got those five Cl180s and then decided not to use them?

 

[Lampshade]

As for SeaContainers never ordering new stock (they were GNER right?), they did have an almost brand new electric fleet and a fairly spry (second newest HSTs after the XC ones?) fleet of HSTs to work with.

And was it NXEC or the state that got those five Cl180s and then decided not to use them?

The idea was to use them on the Lincoln services which never materialised.

 

[WillPS]

I'd be surprised if it didn't turn out that National Express ordered the most.

 

[Philip Elliott]

I think Connex will be....Southeastern & South Central!

 

[WillPS]

This is probably slightly inaccurate, but here goes:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AjkitY4bx-IWdGZhR2RZcFlZZllBOWVSMUtJeTVXanc

Connex ordered a lot but received hardly any of it

First rank pretty poorly

GoVia appear to be top but then you have to split that between GoAhead and Keolis

Stagecoach edge ahead with their half of Virgin in Carriages, NX edge ahead in train numbers

 

[cj_1985]

also worth noting for those that have forgotten...

that the class 360 that are presently used by Nat Ex, and soon to be used by that dutch lot (that i forget the spelling of) were ordered by and entered service with First Group

Likewise the class 334 (for Scotrail) and class 460s (for Gat Ex) were ordered by Nat Ex...

and the class 458s having been ordered by Stagecoach


also depending on how you want to count things...
the class 170s for Anglia and Hull Trains were ordered by GB Railways, which as we all know became a subsidiary of First group in 2004 iirc... so depending on your own opinion, you could count those units as ordered by First.
Same with any of the class 66s ordered by GBRf while owned by First Group.

the PPM things in use with London Midland would count towards Go-Via/Go-Ahead, as would the class 377/5s, the forthcoming class 377/6s, all the class 171 units, the Add on order of class 350s for LM (and those for sublease to FTPEx)

the class 57/3s obviously have to be counted towards Virgin, and the 57/6s (602-605) towards First Groups total (If your counting locos)


its only when you sit and list out what trains were order by what company that you realise that we have had quite a lot of stock ordered since privitisation... maybe not as much as we would like.. but still a good chunk

 

[F Great Eastern]

The 21x360's which were ordered by First total 84 vehicles, originally was supposed to be just over 100 vehicles but the SRA prevented them from doing so.

 

[O L Leigh]

[off topic]

Ah, so it was the rail regulator that prevented FGE from being excellent, but all NXEA's shortcomings are of their own making. Am I wrong to detect bias in your postings...?

[/off topic]

O L Leigh

 

[northwichcat]

As for SeaContainers never ordering new stock (they were GNER right?), they did have an almost brand new electric fleet and a fairly spry (second newest HSTs after the XC ones?) fleet of HSTs to work with.

It's not always the oldest stock that gets replaced by the new though, many of the 170s and 185s have replaced Sprinters, which are still in operation.

And was it NXEC or the state that got those five Cl180s and then decided not to use them?

NX secured them but didn't need them immediately so they subleased 3 to Northern. NX lost the franchise after the 180s had been secured for Lincoln services but EC didn't want to run Lincoln services using 180s.

 

[WillPS]

I realised I missed the 8 trains/36 carriages NX ordered for Gatwick Express - boosting their lead on trains.

I didn't count the Class 57s as I determined them to be an extensive rebuild akin to the HST powercars. There's also the fact that they didn't create any new trains, nor add any carriages (as such) to the network.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AjkitY4bx-IWdGZhR2RZcFlZZllBOWVSMUtJeTVXanc

 

[jopsuk]

I realised I missed the 8 trains/36 carriages NX ordered for Gatwick Express - boosting their lead on trains.

The 460s are eight carriage, not four.

 

[WillPS]

The 460s are eight carriage, not four.

You're right, not sure why I typed 36; it's correct on the spreadsheet.

 

[tbtc]

It's not always the oldest stock that gets replaced by the new though, many of the 170s and 185s have replaced Sprinters, which are still in operation

True.

We had a thread a while ago about the number of new trains which directly replaced ones that were scrapped. Most new trains replace midlife ones (which may or may not lead to the withdrawal of others, often after a bit of cascading...).

 

[northwichcat]

True.

We had a thread a while ago about the number of new trains which directly replaced ones that were scrapped. Most new trains replace midlife ones (which may or may not lead to the withdrawal of others, often after a bit of cascading...).

Sometimes it does make sense to do that - for instance if FNW had ordered two types of trains around the turn of the millennium - one as class 101 replacement and one as loco hauled replacement - then they could have had even worse reliability problems. However, it seems illogical for Manchester Airport to Cleethorpes to have new trains instead of 158s while Liverpool to Norwich has refurbished 158s.