Which Operator has the oldest average fleet age?

[8J]

I was wondering which TOC has the oldest average fleet age, and then look at it in relation to the performance figures. I know it is not the only determining factor (signals and track failures etc...)

The only one that springs to mind as particuarly old is merseyrail as they only operate 507/8's from the late 70's, but FCC could be lower with the 313's.

Thanks

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Island Line Trains? I'm not sure what their official position is, being part of the SWT franchise now, but all their stock date from 1938.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
There is a webpage link to the official figures that has floated about on here before IIRC, but I can't for the life of me recall it. I think either ILT, MerseyRail or FCC were bottom though, the latter may be spared however with their 377s.

 

[HSTEd]

I don't imagine that East Coast comes off very well either.

Merseyrail definitely wins though as ILT is now part of SWT.

 

[fgwrich]

This is a question seems to appear fairly often - One of the main tocs is First Great Western.

Fleet size - over 201 Vehicles (117 Power cars for 54 HST Sets) {54 HST Sets excluding the bumber of Mk3s).
Starting with the age first.
4 Class 57/6s - Newer power unit, Class 47 Shell.
117 Class 43 HST Power Cars for 54 HST Sets.
45 Class 150 Units.
8 Class 143 Units.
14 Class 153s.
16 Class 158s
57 Class 165/166 Units.

5 Class 180 Units - The only non ex BR Stock in the fleet - bar the 4 joint BAA / FGW Heathrow Connect 360s.

 

[8J]

And their figures on average are pretty well off, considering the stock was deemed "incompatible" with the single bore tunnels of the liverpool loop system following 508124's derailment a few years ago. I'm not too sure how long the 507/8's will be around as I've heared from a reliable source thay they will be gone by 2017 at the latest. I dont see this happening unless another batch of 378's are ordered, but I'm not sure that they will be compatible with the loop system...

EDIT: in relation to merseyrail.

 

[ATW Alex 101]

Yep Merseyrail with the oldest average stock and they will be in their fortys when they are taken out of service. The company operating with the oldest stock in operation is southern and fcc with their 313' s. However they are not the company with the oldest stock on an average age as they have 377' s which are fairly new

 

[eastdyke]

I was wondering which TOC has the oldest average fleet age, and then look at it in relation to the performance figures. I know it is not the only determining factor (signals and track failures etc...)

The only one that springs to mind as particuarly old is merseyrail as they only operate 507/8's from the late 70's, but FCC could be lower with the 313's.

Thanks

According to 'Britain's Railways from Rail - The Comprehensive Guide' (2012-2013 quarter 1) it is indeed Merseyrail at 33.50 years. FGW next at 29.58 and then East Coast at 26.22.

Not surprisingly London Overground are the 'winners' at 2.06.

A very telling stat is that only 2 TOCs have achieved a lower average age of rolling stock compared with 2007-2008 quarter 4.

 

[ainsworth74]

I think these two ORR reports may be of interest to those on this thread.

 

[Seanrider]

Northern Because they have pacers?

 

[Darandio]

Northern Because they have pacers?

It isn't Northern, it's answered above.

There is widespread older stock on the network than Pacers.

 

[F Great Eastern]

You know I never really thought about FGW initally, although I'd say that is more to do with the fact they've given the vast majority of their stock pretty large refurbishment.

 

[starrymarkb]

This is a question seems to appear fairly often - One of the main tocs is First Great Western.

Fleet size - over 201 Vehicles (117 Power cars for 54 HST Sets) {54 HST Sets excluding the bumber of Mk3s).
Starting with the age first.
4 Class 57/6s - Newer power unit, Class 47 Shell.
117 Class 43 HST Power Cars for 54 HST Sets.
45 Class 150 Units.
8 Class 143 Units.
14 Class 153s.
16 Class 158s
57 Class 165/166 Units.

5 Class 180 Units - The only non ex BR Stock in the fleet - bar the 4 joint BAA / FGW Heathrow Connect 360s.

IEP (Camel Class) will bring that down a bit as it will replace the worst of the HST fleet (the best sets will be life extended pending IEP Tranche 2 for the Far West)

Plus there are 319s/New EMUs due for the Thames Valley - be interesting to see what affect they have on the average (not much if it's 319s)

 

[hwl]

IEP (Camel Class) will bring that down a bit as it will replace the worst of the HST fleet (the best sets will be life extended pending IEP Tranche 2 for the Far West)

Plus there are 319s/New EMUs due for the Thames Valley - be interesting to see what affect they have on the average (not much if it's 319s)

Age isn't every thing.
Even if it were 319s it would raise the would raise the quality level and capacity else where
Doubling up units and extra services
Cascaded 165s to replace 150s etc

DDA (2020) implications:
Pacers to the scrap heap...
153 probably not worth doing anything to given some having structural sag issues so get replaced by 150s.

Even if a number of DMUs are retained to bolster service levels there should be a 20 150s spare to help replace pacers/153 with other operators.

 

[ATW Alex 101]

Yep Merseyrail with the oldest average stock and they will be in their fortys when they are taken out of service. The company operating with the oldest stock in operation is southern and fcc with their 313' s. However they are not the company with the oldest stock on an average age as they have 377' s which are fairly new

I' m wrong there, the companies with the oldest stock in operation are chiltern and Arriva as they have the 121 bubble cars

 

[Pixa]

I think these two ORR reports may be of interest to those on this thread.

In a format that's easier to play with here

 

[bnm]

I' m wrong there, the companies with the oldest stock in operation are chiltern and Arriva as they have the 121 bubble cars

I think you are wrong a second time. As mentioned earlier in the thread, the oldest stock on the National network is Island Line/SWTs Class 483s.

 

[ATW Alex 101]

I think you are wrong a second time. As mentioned earlier in the thread, the oldest stock on the National network is Island Line/SWTs Class 483s.

Yes I'm wrong a second time. The first post was wrong because I was tired and not thinking straight (If you look at the time it was posted it was about half past two time) and then I received a message from Yorkie saying that bubble cars are older than 313's and it suddenly clicked. I forgot completely about island line and I apologize for that. Unfortunately I cannot go back to edit it as I am on moderation which doesn't allow me to edit posts

 

[fgwrich]

I think you are wrong a second time. As mentioned earlier in the thread, the oldest stock on the National network is Island Line/SWTs Class 483s.

Island line trains is abit of a funny one - Is it / Isnt it part of SWT. And is it completely on the National Network? If it is, then Yes - It's the oldest stock running on the network to this day.

However, as the question was 'which TOC has the oldest average fleet age', It's already now been answered as Merseyrail & First Great Western - despite the excellent condition of both interiors / refurbishments.

 

[tom1649]

Island line trains is abit of a funny one - Is it / Isnt it part of SWT. And is it completely on the National Network? If it is, then Yes - It's the oldest stock running on the network to this day.

Yes it is part of SWT and yes it is part of the National Rail Network. You can by through tickets to/from the mainland via the ferry.

 

[fgwrich]

I thought so. Knew about the through ticketing arrangements, just wondered how far Island Line was connected. Just wondered how connected it is in South West Trains - as in a Separate operation to the main network, or completely fully integrated - bar the rolling stock of course. Time to dig out one of the books i've got i think.

 

[CockneySparrow]

This is a question seems to appear fairly often - One of the main tocs is First Great Western.

Fleet size - over 201 Vehicles (117 Power cars for 54 HST Sets) {54 HST Sets excluding the bumber of Mk3s).
Starting with the age first.
4 Class 57/6s - Newer power unit, Class 47 Shell.
117 Class 43 HST Power Cars for 54 HST Sets.
45 Class 150 Units.
8 Class 143 Units.
14 Class 153s.
16 Class 158s
57 Class 165/166 Units.

5 Class 180 Units - The only non ex BR Stock in the fleet - bar the 4 joint BAA / FGW Heathrow Connect 360s.

What about Greater Anglia

 

[D365]

What about Greater Anglia

379, 360, 170. Not one of the oldest average.

 

[ainsworth74]

379, 360, 170. Not one of the oldest average.

I disagree the fleet is at 24.97 years average age which make GA the operator of the fifth oldest fleet on average. Not the oldest but surely a top five spot makes them one of the oldest?

 

[D365]

379, 360, 170. Not one of the oldest average.

I disagree the fleet is at 24.97 years average age which make GA the operator of the fifth oldest fleet on average. Not the oldest but surely a top five spot makes them one of the oldest?

Don't mind me, what do I know :embarrassed: Should go down a tad when 315s and maybe 153s are withdrawn and the HC 360s come.

 

[jopsuk]

are the Connect 360s definitely pencilled in to move to the Great Eastern? I realise there aren't many of them

 

[Goatboy]

I disagree the fleet is at 24.97 years average age which make GA the operator of the fifth oldest fleet on average. Not the oldest but surely a top five spot makes them one of the oldest?

I think the GA figure demonstrates the whole average age thing is unfairly biased against TOC's operating long trains with unpowered coaching stock.

Age is not as important with unpowered coaches as it would be with locos or multiple units but GA's age is very much skewed by its Mk3's.

It seems like the average age of the GA fleet is actually older than the actual age of every single driven peice of stock they run? Even the 90's are not 25 years old. Do they have a single locomotive or DMU which is more than 25 years old?

Ditto FGW - 29 year average age because they have lots and lots of Mk3's.

Of course quite how useful these figures are to the public I've no idea. It probably gives them the wrong idea, after all a train is 'new' at 3 years old whereas many members of the public trade in a car at that age!

 

[sprinterguy]

I think the GA figure demonstrates the whole average age thing is unfairly biased against TOC's operating long trains with unpowered coaching stock.

Age is not as important with unpowered coaches as it would be with locos or multiple units but GA's age is very much skewed by its Mk3's.

The average age will be "skewed" for any operator who operates long trains, whether they are unpowered carriages or multiple units, simply because by counting each individual vehicle they are of course going to make up a large proportion of the total. I wonder whether counting each complete unit/carriage rake woul provide a more meaningful average for the layman.

It seems like the average age of the GA fleet is actually older than the actual age of every single driven peice of stock they run? Even the 90's are not 25 years old. Do they have a single locomotive or DMU which is more than 25 years old?

GA might not have any locos or DMUs that are over 25 years old (Although the 153s and 156s are pretty much at the quarter century mark now), but they do have absolutely loads of EMUs that are over 25 years old in the form of the 315s and some of the 317s.

 

[northwichcat]

Island line trains is abit of a funny one - Is it / Isnt it part of SWT. And is it completely on the National Network? If it is, then Yes - It's the oldest stock running on the network to this day.

However, as the question was 'which TOC has the oldest average fleet age', It's already now been answered as Merseyrail & First Great Western - despite the excellent condition of both interiors / refurbishments.

What we do have to remember though is the Island Line users always get the same rolling stock, the relatively new Desiros being in SWT's possession don't benefit the users on the Isle of Wight in any way.

Likewise the unelectrified Northern lines that get the 1980s DMUs never get the more modern EMUs which bring up the Northern average.

The Merseyrail users get stock of the same sort of age every day and there isn't newer stock on other lines bringing up the average.

 

[AndyLandy]

This came up in a railway magazine I was reading recently. If memory serves, Merseyrail came out with the oldest 'average' train age. I'll see if I can find the article again...

 

[tbtc]

What we do have to remember though is the Island Line users always get the same rolling stock, the relatively new Desiros being in SWT's possession don't benefit the users on the Isle of Wight in any way.

Likewise the unelectrified Northern lines that get the 1980s DMUs never get the more modern EMUs which bring up the Northern average

Although at least the 1980s DMUs on some Northern lines are going to be replaced by marginally younger EMUs (whereas there seems to be no prospect of the 1980s DMUs at SWT/ GA etc being replaced any time soon).