Which junctions would you grade-separate?

[Bald Rick]

The Woking plans published by Network Rail in 2015. how long must matters take to move along? Make Great British Railways great sometime/ in the fullness of time/ when the time is right ...

How much do you reckon it would cost?

It was planned almost a century ago, and the Southern Railway bought the land (some of which has subsequently be sold).

However, a quiz question. How many extra paths into Waterloo does the Woking flyover enable ?


My vote goes to Harpenden and West Hampstead South, albeit the latter is nigh on impossible. These two bookend the stretch of line that has the most reactionary delay on the network.

 

[Helvellyn]

However, a quiz question. How many extra paths into Waterloo does the Woking flyover enable ?

Not necessarily any but it would certainly make the timetable more robust overall. If Crossrail 2 ever got built you'd certainly appreciate the ability to path more trains at Wokikg though.

 

[brad465]

It was planned almost a century ago, and the Southern Railway bought the land (some of which has subsequently be sold).

However, a quiz question. How many extra paths into Waterloo does the Woking flyover enable ?

I'm going to guess zero, because Bald Rick would not have asked the question if the answer was any other positive value.

Maybe it would allow more paths if the 5th track proposal between Clapham Jct and Surbiton ever happens, but given that went quiet even before covid I strongly doubt it.

 

[Bald Rick]

Maybe it would allow more paths if the 5th track proposal between Clapham Jct and Surbiton ever happens, but given that went quiet even before covid I strongly doubt it.

The 5th track proposal was never going to happen.

And yes, the answer for Woking is zero, unless ETCS & ATO comes along.

 

[BrianW]

It was planned almost a century ago, and the Southern Railway bought the land (some of which has subsequently be sold).

However, a quiz question. How many extra paths into Waterloo does the Woking flyover enable ?


My vote goes to Harpenden and West Hampstead South, albeit the latter is nigh on impossible. These two bookend the stretch of line that has the most reactionary delay on the network.

These are exactly the kind of rational assessments that must be made. Every £ spent on something is not available to be spent to better effect. Simples.
So how did the proposed flyovers at Woking ever get to be in a Network Rail document in 2015?

 

[Falcon1200]

But it would be hugely expensive just to mitigate a handful of conflicts per day.

More than a handful of conflicts surely! The half-hourly expresses from Paddington to Oxford and beyond usually, in my experience, use the Down Main from Reading and therefore conflict with 3 of the 4 lines at Didcot East; As do the Up trains which, also in my experience, use the Up Main. And, it seems to me, every time I am on one of those Down trains we get stopped, or at least slowed, at Moreton Cutting for an Up train from the Swindon direction to pass (even if that train has only just left Swindon....)

 

[Backroom_boy]

Hardly anything uses the slows, and if you blocked the WCML there for a month the compensation cost would be immense.

Under GBR is such compensation going to be a thing?

 

[Bald Rick]

Under GBR is such compensation going to be a thing?

It will for non GBR operators.

 

[Zomboid]

Which for the WCML would mean the FOCs. And the route does carry quite a lot of freight

 

[Snow1964]

Other honourable mentions are Basingstoke, which has a statistically outrageous amount of delay minutes per delay incident. This is of course compounded but the fact that almost all freight crosses the up fast, and the junction is directly adjacent to the station, making any intervention worth the cost impossible.

Basingstoke is an odd one, it is easier to go underneath, bit of a shame they didn't do something when line was shut for over a week for resignalling about 8 years ago.

The ideal would have been to dig a diagonal trench and drop in preformed rectangular tunnel segments as cut and cover dive under. It is chalk so fairly stable and easy to dig with modern equipment. Roughly where Norm Hill bridge spans, ideally swapping the sidings and westbound running lines (which would allow speed restriction approaching platform to be lifted). With a ramp near Barton Hill sidings (for trains reversing at Basingstoke heading back to London) continuing as mini tunnel under Gresley Road where trains from Reading could join. Thus allowing both trains from Reading to pass under main lines without conflicts and trains heading back to London not having to cross on flat.

 

[The Planner]

Under GBR is such compensation going to be a thing?

Probably not, but no one knows yet.

 

[Zomboid]

So how did the proposed flyovers at Woking ever get to be in a Network Rail document in 2015?

Because a junction of that nature is always going to be the kind of place where a 2 minute delay in a train arriving there can easily spiral into lots of trains being delayed.

But there's also a reason why it's not actually been built yet.

 

[Class15]

Kensal Green Junction (although grade separation is probably not needed, just a much improved flat junction)
Forest Gate Junction
Acton Wells Junction
Colwich Junction
Woking Junction
Ardwick Junction

Top three would probably be the last three.

 

[Zomboid]

Basingstoke is an odd one, it is easier to go underneath, bit of a shame they didn't do something when line was shut for over a week for resignalling about 8 years ago.

The ideal would have been to dig a diagonal trench and drop in preformed rectangular tunnel segments as cut and cover dive under. It is chalk so fairly stable and easy to dig with modern equipment. Roughly where Norm Hill bridge spans, ideally swapping the sidings and westbound running lines (which would allow speed restriction approaching platform to be lifted). With a ramp near Barton Hill sidings (for trains reversing at Basingstoke heading back to London) continuing as mini tunnel under Gresley Road where trains from Reading could join. Thus allowing both trains from Reading to pass under main lines without conflicts and trains heading back to London not having to cross on flat.

I wonder if there would be a way to use the flyover at Worting Junction to have the lines between there and Basingstoke paired by use, so Southampton to Reading trains could avoid crossing all the mains on the flat.

Then there would probably need to be another flyover at wherever is convenient between Basingstoke and Hook to pair by direction.

Haven't come to with anything yet with my crayons, but it might be possible.

 

[swt_passenger]

These are exactly the kind of rational assessments that must be made. Every £ spent on something is not available to be spent to better effect. Simples.
So how did the proposed flyovers at Woking ever get to be in a Network Rail document in 2015?

Basically because it was written for a world where Crossrail 2 was assumed going to happen in a few years, and existing passenger growth would carry on. In the real world neither has happened, and peak passenger numbers have at best stagnated, or reduced.

CR2 would free up significant numbers of paths on the fasts for trains from the longer distance origins. If you check the report there’s a key section that explains about transferring a number of existing suburban services that run on the fasts inbound from Surbiton back to the more appropriate slows, it’s shown as Table 3.1 on page #33.

 

[MatthewHutton]

More than a handful of conflicts surely! The half-hourly expresses from Paddington to Oxford and beyond usually, in my experience, use the Down Main from Reading and therefore conflict with 3 of the 4 lines at Didcot East; As do the Up trains which, also in my experience, use the Up Main. And, it seems to me, every time I am on one of those Down trains we get stopped, or at least slowed, at Moreton Cutting for an Up train from the Swindon direction to pass (even if that train has only just left Swindon....)

Didcot east is the main constraint on cancelling the Heathrow express and running an extra 4tph to some combination of Oxford/Bristol/Cardiff/Cheltenham.

 

[positron]

Cardiff West Junction gets a vote from me. Would enable a higher tph on the Cardiff city line and also facilitate further expansion to the north west of the city. Though there's a smaller intervention to the existing flat grade junction that would at least get you to 4tph.

 

[465fan]

Kensal Green Junction (although grade separation is probably not needed, just a much improved flat junction)
Forest Gate Junction
Acton Wells Junction
Colwich Junction
Woking Junction
Ardwick Junction

Top three would probably be the last three.

Colwich bothers me because they spent a fortune resignalling it and didn't just tear the whole lot up, and with all the preliminary route indicators (like Rugby) they didn't put a long 125mph crossover in from Down Fast to Down Stafford, and re-do the diamond to let up road trains going Up Stafford - Up Fast just speed past.

There's not a lot that actually means Colwich needs to be done as you only have, technically, two conflicting moves per hour which is two trains from London to Manchester via Stoke. When HS2 comes in, you will need more careful pathing without doubt, but quite frankly Handsacre should never have been done and everything should have gone direct to Crewe. Quite why we need a Macclesfield-terminating HS2 service so Stoke gets a train an hour... What a country.

 

[The Planner]

Colwich bothers me because they spent a fortune resignalling it and didn't just tear the whole lot up, and with all the preliminary route indicators (like Rugby) they didn't put a long 125mph crossover in from Down Fast to Down Stafford, and re-do the diamond to let up road trains going Up Stafford - Up Fast just speed past.

I doubt you would have the room unless you moved the junction entirely to the south by some distance. You are not fitting the size of 125mph S&C there.

Ardwick Junction

Top three would probably be the last three.

Really don't understand the continued fascination with Ardwick.

 

[waverley47]

The 5th track proposal was never going to happen.

And yes, the answer for Woking is zero, unless ETCS & ATO comes along.

Yes, that is the problem with Woking. Doing it doesn't give you anything except better regulation and timetabling, and it's a lot of money to spend to make signaller's jobs easier. It has a nice positive BCR because it's easier and cheaper than many of the others on the list, but in terms of actual benefit, it's all a little bit abstract. You're still looking at a round £250m all in.

Hardly anything uses the slows, and if you blocked the WCML there for a month the compensation cost would be immense.

I did mean taking a blockade of the slows and the triangle at Parkside Jn. Disconnect either end from the fasts, take a blockade of either end for a month and build a flyover over the fasts so that it goes up and over the WCML.

Now, it's not really necessary, but it's one that as time goes on, with a new station at Golbourne and the new terminal at Parkside, starts to look attractive just to allow better separation of the different flows.

My vote goes to Harpenden and West Hampstead South, albeit the latter is nigh on impossible. These two bookend the stretch of line that has the most reactionary delay on the network

For me, the one I could never get over was Camden Road and Gospel Oak Jns. Honestly, if I could, I'd grade separate out the entirety of the NLL, and every single connecting chord in North London. Unfortunately, that would probably cost about as much as HS2, and this thread was about which ones were possible, as much as which ones were needed.

 

[Magdalia]

Yes, that is the problem with Woking. Doing it doesn't give you anything except better regulation and timetabling, and it's a lot of money to spend to make signaller's jobs easier.

Did Hitchin do any more than that?

 

[DanNCL]

Should the Leamside line ever reopen then I would suggest rebuilding Tursdale Junction as a grade separated junction that would allow trains from Durham to access the slow lines towards Ferryhill in both directions without conflicting with other traffic on the ECML or the Leamside line, that would have the benefit of allowing the long mooted Newcastle - Middlesbrough via Durham service to start, but without the Leamside line reopening I struggle to see a financial case for major reconstruction at Tursdale Junction.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

Has anyone mentioned Sheet Stores Junction? How much of a bottle neck is that? Would a flyover taking trains from Toton/Nottingham onto the line to Stenson Junction be helpful?

 

[Peter0124]

Nothing in Scotland mentioned yet! So;

Gretna Jc
Law Jc
Greenhill Upper Jc

How about Newton West Jn?

 

[waverley47]

How about Newton West Jn?

If you were going to attempt anything here, you'd take the fast lines at or near Rutherglen, down into a tunnel about three miles long, and back up to the surface at or near Uddingston. But that's a lot of money, and the good folks of Cambuslang would be annoyed at the loss of their direct trains to Lanark.

 

[Bald Rick]

So how did the proposed flyovers at Woking ever get to be in a Network Rail document in 2015?

It was based on squeezing two extra paths into Waterloo, which was likely to need ETCS, and it was assummed that the Wimbledon ASC would be resignalled with ETCS when that was due (it’s now 35-37 years old).

Did Hitchin do any more than that?

Yes, released paths on the ECML, and also took out pathing time which orovided s journey time benefit.

Has anyone mentioned Sheet Stores Junction? How much of a bottle neck is that? Would a flyover taking trains from Toton/Nottingham onto the line to Stenson Junction be helpful?

It’s not a bottle neck at all. Trent East is though!

 

[465fan]

I doubt you would have the room unless you moved the junction entirely to the south by some distance. You are not fitting the size of 125mph S&C there.

Really don't understand the continued fascination with Ardwick.

Well you could just move everything back to Rugeley North Junction, and then operate what are effectively independent lines to Stafford or Manchester.

 

[Jimini]

Didcot east is the main constraint on cancelling the Heathrow express and running an extra 4tph to some combination of Oxford/Bristol/Cardiff/Cheltenham.

Dependent on freight schedules, some of the XC services use the UM / DM from Reading to Didcot East as well.

 

[Brubulus]

And yes, the answer for Woking is zero, unless ETCS & ATO comes along.

Which junction would unlock the most new paths, both in absolute terms and per pound spent? I'm pretty sure in absolute terms it would be Selhurst, but that would be expensive so I'm not sure which would be the best value.

 

[The Planner]

Well you could just move everything back to Rugeley North Junction, and then operate what are effectively independent lines to Stafford or Manchester.

Your problem then, is that your two track section for freight becomes longer. Rock and a hard place.