Which end is at the front?

[pne]

Is it possible to find out which coach will be at the front of a given train?

For example, I seem to recall hearing that the first-class coach(es) will always (usually?) be at the London end?

What about on cross-country services such as Plymouth to Birmingham or Birmingham to Stansted that have no "London end"? Is it the more southern end then?

Or can orders vary from one day to the other?

(There's also the case of things such as 4-car + 5-car Meridian units forming a single 9-car formation where the first class coaches will be in the middle - it's presumably impossible to know whether the 4-car portion or the 5-car portion will be at the front?)

Background: I'm wonder whether it's worthwhile to pick a specific seat when reserving to know that it will face in the direction the train moves.

 

[TheEdge]

TOCs that serve London will endevour to always have first class at the London end. This is relatively easy where the stock runs mainly out and back style trips and are limited to those routes and is older style "loco hauled" style stock. Where TOCs use units they will still aim to generally get first class at the London end but they can be less reliable.

Traditionally railway companies that did not serve London would have first class at the end of train pointed towards whatever was considered the major destination. As to modern arrangements, no idea, not really sure there is the same scheme in place for ones like XC or ATW.

 

[Hyphen]

Is it possible to find out which coach will be at the front of a given train?

On CrossCountry's Voyager routes, the CIS at stations usually endeavours to tell people that First Class will be in coach A, and whether this is at the front or rear of the train. However, in my experience, it's wrong more often than it's right.

On their 170 routes, station CISes just say "in part of coach A" without indication of whether this is at the front or the back, though I guess it's much harder to say on these routes due to interworking of stock between Birmingham-Nottingham/Leicester short runs and Cardiff/Stansted longer runs, as well as regular reversals at Derby.

 

[swt_passenger]

Can't speak for the XC HSTs, but the Voyagers could never really be organised into a standard direction of travel, because there are so many reversing points 'en route', such as at Reading and Birmingham New St for the south coast to north east route.

Even entering the depot at Eastleigh for overnight servicing can lead to a change of train direction, as there are north and south entrance routes from a loop...

 

[43167]

On the XC HST 1st class is normally at the front on southbound services, so will be at the back on northbound services.

 

[Ash Bridge]

A little tip for locating 1st class on a XC Voyager. When the train is approaching look for the yellow oblong strip centrally mounted between the lamp clusters but below the bottom of the yellow ends (on or just above the coupling gear) the 1st class accommodation will be at that end of the train.(not my shot btw.)

 

[yorkie]

Background: I'm wonder whether it's worthwhile to pick a specific seat when reserving to know that it will face in the direction the train moves.

If you travel on reservable services via London, then in general yes.

If you avoid London on CrossCountry (e.g. Plymouth-Birmingham) then no chance!

 

[Welshman]

A little tip for locating 1st class on a XC Voyager. When the train is approaching look for the yellow oblong strip centrally mounted between the lamp clusters but below the bottom of the yellow ends (on or just above the coupling gear) the 1st class accommodation will be at that end of the train.(not my shot btw.)

Yes - that's good tip, and the same applies with a Virgin Voyager.
However, I find that in cases where the train is entering a built-up station, or at least one with a substantial canopy, the brightness of the off-side driving light means the coupling bar cannot be seen until the last moment. Then follows a quick sprint down the platform when the train is in reverse formation......

 

[Ash Bridge]

Yes - that's good tip, and the same applies with a Virgin Voyager.
However, I find that in cases where the train is entering a built-up station, or at least one with a substantial canopy, the brightness of the off-side driving light means the coupling bar cannot be seen until the last moment. Then follows a quick sprint down the platform when the train is in reverse formation......

Yes, I would have thought they were applied when all the voyagers were operated by Virgin, also I'm pretty sure when they first entered service they didn't even carry the then standard (across Europe?) yellow band above the 1st class section, or did they then still call it Club Class?

 

[edwin_m]

First Class is less predictable on EMT than on the other London intercity TOCs, because trains starting or ending their day in Nottingham, or Leeds via Nottingham, will be turned round.

 

[hassaanhc]

Yesterday I had 222005 on the 1829 Sheffield to St Pancras and First was on the country end. Likewise the set in the adjacent platform after arrival in London.
Just before that I had 221120+220023 from Leeds (1711 departure from there) and First was on both leading ends. Screen was showing Middle.

 

[pne]

How “handy” that the services I’m most interested in seem the least reliable

(Specifically, XC Voyagers/HSTs from Penzance/Plymouth to Birmingham, XC 170s from Birmingham to Leicester and EMT 222s/HSTs from Leicester to London and possibly in the other direction as well.)

“My” other trains will be probably be FGW London to Penzance (presumably HST with First at the London end), Thameslink St Pancras to Gatwick and return, and Southern Gatwick to Horsham and return.

The latter two, I think, are not usually reservable? Or do Southern reserve seats in the Bournemouth/Portsmouth/Bognor Regis services via Horsham?

Thank you for all the comments so far!

 

[CC 72100]

As a general trend, on XC HSTs 1st class tends to be at the Plymouth end, with the quiet coach (G) at the Northern end. Of course this is all dependent on reversals etc., but even if this is the unofficial standard, it happens 90% of the time and sets can go for weeks in the 'correct' order.

 

[Kite159]

The 159 fleet is currently around half & half in terms of First Class being at the country end or London end. Which leads to some confusion when passengers try to get on into the leading quiet car via the first door.

Southern have First Class areas at both ends of the 377/1-4s. I've never seen a Southern reservation, I would imagine it will be like SWT/London Midland and you will get given a set train but not a seat.

 

[BantamMenace]

East Coast services tend to always run the same way round as the class 91 needs to be at the non-London end as they need to be this way to be serviced at Bounds Green i believe.

 

[tsr]

There are no seat reservations at all on Southern or Thameslink trains. Reservations are indeed only tied to a specific train, if mandatory. This is chiefly for allocating the correct trains for Advance tickets. Be aware that some three-car 377/3 stock can be used when involved in any further movements to/from the sidings at Horsham (some of those are only 6 coaches in length) and as a result First Class could only be at one end of each unit, as these trains are mostly intended for Metro use, where First Class is declassified (including the Horsham-Dorking-London Victoria route, but not on any routes via Gatwick Airport).

First Class on Thameslink 377s/319s is usually at one end of each four-car unit, which may or may not be advertised depending on the information input beforehand. 387s are effectively given a rather poor rendition of First Class towards one end, and I'm not sure how well that's advertised before arrival.

P.S. Southern do not run to Bournemouth, though connections from their Southampton services to Bournemouth are popular, hence why there may be confusion.

 

[pne]

Thank you! (Also for the correction on Bournemouth vs Southampton.)

 

[Crossover]

A little tip for locating 1st class on a XC Voyager. When the train is approaching look for the yellow oblong strip centrally mounted between the lamp clusters but below the bottom of the yellow ends (on or just above the coupling gear) the 1st class accommodation will be at that end of the train.(not my shot btw.)

185's are the same. Again, with 185's, they could be any way round

 

[Ash Bridge]

185's are the same. Again, with 185's, they could be any way round

Never knew that, thought it was unique to 220/1s.

 

[Crossover]

Never knew that, thought it was unique to 220/1s.

Yep - the yellow bar denotes 1st in what is now Coach C - seen in the pic below

http://train-photos.com.s3.amazonaws.com/11745.jpg

 

[Deepgreen]

Yep - the yellow bar denotes 1st in what is now Coach C - seen in the pic below

http://train-photos.com.s3.amazonaws.com/11745.jpg

Shame they (and many other TOCS) don't bother to apply the tried and tested yellow stripe above the windows that served so well from the mid-60s. The 185s have the coupling indication but no stripe that might actually help the passengers! Thameslink are just as bad, and SWT opted for light blue dots for some bizarre reason.

 

[Taunton]

Shame they (and many other TOCS) don't bother to apply the tried and tested yellow stripe above the windows that served so well from the mid-60s.

It is actually a UIC standard to have the yellow stripe above First Class accommodation. It was in use across the Continent before the Southern Region picked it up for boat trains, then all SR stock, and then the rest of BR, progressively through the 1960s.

Both Network Rail and ATOC are members of UIC, so it should be incorporated in Group Standards. Quite why some UK operators have non-standard markings, or nothing at all, is a mystery.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Shame they (and many other TOCS) don't bother to apply the tried and tested yellow stripe above the windows that served so well from the mid-60s. The 185s have the coupling indication but no stripe that might actually help the passengers! Thameslink are just as bad, and SWT opted for light blue dots for some bizarre reason.

Indeed, it was a good means of indentifying the 1st class section and also used in other European countries too, were it not Virgin Voyagers and Pendolino's the first to omit it. At least they relented and retro fitted it to the Voyagers later.

 

[Crossover]

I think some of the Greater Anglia (possibly?) stock have 1st donated with a filled in black triangle?

 

[hassaanhc]

Class 395 have extra yellow on one end too, but to denote which end the wheelchair space is! (No First on those) https://flic.kr/p/pdiLCU

 

[ainsworth74]

I think some of the Greater Anglia (possibly?) stock have 1st donated with a filled in black triangle?

I believe that's a Southern Region/Network SouthEast thing. I have a feeling Southern and possibly South Eastern do it as well (on at least some trains).

 

[GatwickDepress]

One of the Thameslink (that Thameslink, not this Thameslink!) liveries took the form of a silver coat with blue surrounding the windows of standard class and yellow on first class. I thought it was quite a clever implementation of the old "yellow denotes first class" rule, and it was very recognisable!


319444 - Harpenden by richa20002, on Flickr

I believe that's a Southern Region/Network SouthEast thing. I have a feeling Southern and possibly South Eastern do it as well (on at least some trains).

On the Southern Region, the black triangle denoted which end of the train the luggage/parcels/guards compartment was located rather than first class, as far as know at least.

Currently Southeastern do something in the same vein, only they use yellow fins on one end of the 395s to denote to staff which end the disabled area is.

 

[Crossover]

I think some of the Greater Anglia (possibly?) stock have 1st donated with a filled in black triangle?

As I thought - pretty sure I'm not going mad - it is the 379's I saw the other week! (not my pic)
https://www.flickr.com/photos/dwbphotos/5469307588/

 

[hassaanhc]

As I thought - pretty sure I'm not going mad - it is the 379's I saw the other week! (not my pic)
https://www.flickr.com/photos/dwbphotos/5469307588/

321 and 360 have it too, while the 321 also have the yellow stripe.