Which bus manufacturer has the better build quality?

[prod_pep]

I think the winning manufacturer for build quality has to be Optare, both past and present. The venerable Solo is a solid riding bus and some of their older products were outstanding.

Both ADL and Wright are very hit and miss. I think ADL's old-style Enviro400 is generally a bus which ages awfully. It looks nice but all the batches we've had around here turned rough and rattly within a few months. Those with the Scania chassis seem to be better on average but some quickly succumb to poor ride quality too. The MMC is somewhat better but they pale in comparison with the Volvo B7TL/ADL ALX400s Arriva operate up here which are 15 years old and still superb to ride. I really like the ALX400 as it is a much better built body than its successor.

As for Wright, the ex-London VLW Geminis I've ridden have been near-universally abysmal, as have most StreetLites: both very rattly and every bump is felt. The deckers with VDL's DB300 chassis have aged well but more recent Volvo B5L hybrids are again hit and miss. The single deck bodies vary wildly too, ranging from the solid Wright Endurance and older Cadets to the unforgivably naff Wright Axcess-Ultralow on the Scania chassis. Those latter were the direst of buses.

As for others, I don't have fond memories of the Merc Citaro bendybuses with which Liverpool was saddled for a time. They didn't feel robust, rattled considerably and the seats were awful too; I think the Citaro is rubbish personally. I've only been on one Neoplan but it was very impressive. MCW bodies are reasonably solid in my experience; can't remember riding many bad ones.

The best chassis overall for me has to be the DAF DB250. I've been on countless examples with Optare, Alexander, Plaxton and Northern Counties bodywork and they all seem to stand the test of time admirably. The DLA buses formerly of Arriva London that spread into the provinces were arguably the best riding buses I've tried: smooth and rattle free. The Northern Counties examples offered better ride quality than Leyland and Volvo Olympians with the same body.

 

[MotCO]

From memory, the RT, RF and RM classes in London tended to be rattle-free, or is nostalgia kicking in?

I think the winning manufacturer for build quality has to be Optare, both past and present. The venerable Solo is a solid riding bus and some of their older products were outstanding.

Which returns me to a thread I started a few months back, why can't Optare sell buses? I'm not doubting your views, but it is an enigma. https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/why-cant-optare-sell-buses.209206/

 

[jammy36]

We as passengers quite rightly equate build quality with lack of rattles, comfortable suspension, etc but for an operator build quality might equate to mechanical and electrical reliability, ease of maintenance, etc* - unfortunately the two might not always combine.

I think that might be part of the issue for Optare, whilst they may provide a good passenger environment their reliability isn't always great.

*reliability of aftercare, parts availability, delivery schedule also!

I've found this with cars also I've had some that have lots of comforts, soft touch plastics, etc but have been mechanically flakey and others that seem a little more "tinnier" but reliability wise have needed nothing more than regular servicing and consumables.

 

[richw]

From memory, the RT, RF and RM classes in London tended to be rattle-free, or is nostalgia kicking in?



Which returns me to a thread I started a few months back, why can't Optare sell buses? I'm not doubting your views, but it is an enigma. https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/why-cant-optare-sell-buses.209206/

They’re lead time is terrible. Over 12 months order to delivery for even a small batch of Solo SRs. Operators don’t want to wait that long for delivery.

 

[JModulo]

We as passengers quite rightly equate build quality with lack of rattles, comfortable suspension, etc but for an operator build quality might equate to mechanical and electrical reliability, ease of maintenance, etc* - unfortunately the two might not always combine.

I think that might be part of the issue for Optare, whilst they may provide a good passenger environment their reliability isn't always great.

*reliability of aftercare, parts availability, delivery schedule also!

I've found this with cars also I've had some that have lots of comforts, soft touch plastics, etc but have been mechanically flakey and others that seem a little more "tinnier" but reliability wise have needed nothing more than regular servicing and consumables.

Being able to see the later part, I've always found optare products to be relatively easy to work on, parts also not an issue. It is the design of them which could be improved in some ways. For example there are some suspension components which need changed reguarly (no matter if you buy cheap or the proper parts) compared to other vehicles.

 

[Driver362]

I've found that Volvo B9TL Wright Eclipse Gemini 1/2 are built like tanks.

They're really robust and very reliable.

Also the B7TL Wright Eclipse Gemini but the B9TL seems to be more powerful.

With all due respect as a driver, the build quality of gemini B9 tls is not the best. For one they leak like sieves in the wet. So much so the demister heats the water in the bulkhead and steams up your screen. Unless you wad metros in it to soak up the water. Similar story with b7 rle's as above but rattle like god knows what cab window springs to mind. Plus they normally have lousy heating

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Feb 2021 ==

Have to say back in the days the Olympians were in service I used to regard them as solid buses. I drove Alexander Royales and found these buses very smooth and did not rattle in anyway at all. However these buses were in a bad way regarding corrosion to chassis as early as 10 years old and many withdrawn earlier than they should have been.

Earlier Wright single deckers were pretty solid. But the Volvo B10BLE/Renown was the best at the time. Nice bus and suspension was far superior too compared to the Scania (resulted in Scanias being awful rattly). The earlier Scania L113 also suffered from some corrosion to chassis.
The B7L/Eclipse was a total disaster. Horrible vehicle to travel on and not great to drive either yet still a heavyweight bus yet poor build quality. The B7RLE/Eclipse was much better and a proper solid chassis and heaviest single deckers I’ve seen (thanks also to Firsts double glazing). Just walk on one of theses buses and you can notice how solid the floor.

Still find both B7TL/B9TL on Gemini well built. If nothing is loose (like vaults or access panels not secured properly) there is virtually no rattles at all and along with solid floor.

B7TL/Presidents while not as good as Gemini were also decent build quality with virtually no body rattles.

Trident ALX400/Presidents not so bad either and better than the E400.

I would agree on olympian's

 

[Busman84]

Problem is the Gemini/Eclipse buses was any windscreen that had been replaced appeared to leak rainwater and that’s why they needed soaked in metros. Shoddy workmanship from Wrights caused the rattling issues on the B7RLEs and it all occurred in the cab area. Bits missing to stop cab door rattling aswell as panels above the cab. Heating on B7s could be poor and a useless bus in below freezing conditions.
Yet take any President and E400 and it’s the complete opposite the cab heating is that good you can drive with the window open in subzero conditions.

 

[Driver362]

Cab windows was another source of rattles. I think certainly early B7rles only had one small boost pump to heat the full bus. Draughts were also a nightmare in cold weather. Round town it would be OK. Get it out on a B road especially into a head wind, freezing!

 

[Jordan Adam]

I've generally found the heating on the Wright Eclipse here to be really good. Whereas the Presidents here were freezing cold. On that not i don't think i've ever been on a ADL built bus that wasn't the right temperature they're always nice in warm in the winter and cool in the summer.

Water ingress is a issue on pretty much all buses further down the line, the main cause is due to water getting in where the fibreglass moulds meet the roof as the sealant erodes over time, i suspect this will be a particular issue on Lothians new Evoras over time as the sealant is fully exposed, whereas on most modern buses the join is either recessed or the fibreglass overlaps the main roof section. Another bad spot on water getting in on Wright products is through the roof vents for the forced air ventilation. Most of our Renowns actually had the centre rear vent removed. While a number of Eclipses are getting bad for water getting in the nearside vent about half way up the bus.

Pre-MMC ADL Enviros are quite bad for water vapor gathering on the roof, i'm not sure why it's those specifically, perhaps because the roof panel is made from a cork material? But if you look at any older style ADL bus you'll likely see a water line down the centre of the roof. On double deckers the lower deck seems unaffected.

Shoddy workmanship from Wrights caused the rattling issues on the B7RLEs and it all occurred in the cab area. Bits missing to stop cab door rattling aswell as panels above the cab.

I've found the Euro 3 examples (those up to 56 plate with the bulky cab door) are far worse for from end rattles, however i do think operator maintenance has a part to play, First Aberdeen's 69124 was in an awful state in 2019 with pretty much every panel rattling and loud squeaks coming front the front end of the bus any time it went over a bump, while the interior was worn and damp and the exterior was faded with lots of water stains and large fuel spill stain. Someone complained on Twitter directly to the managing director about it and it was taken off the road almost instantly and sent for a repaint. While they were waiting on new seat cushions to arrive they done some work to sort the interior and mercifully when it returned less than a month later it had 0 rattles and looked like new inside. They also done some mechanical work to it as it now runs like new.

I don't think an older bus rattling badly is necessarily a sign of poor build quality when you consider the amount of mileage they do and how hard they're worked, sadly this is the only bus that's been given such treatment but it proves it can be done, as mentioned above i do think maintenance is a factor. We have 8 B7RLEs that we received from Scotland East in 2018 and they all rattle far more than the native examples of the same age, the cabs are also in far poorer condition.

 

[Kremlin Stooge]

Olympians were very prone to corrosion however I would agree that a decent Palatine was one of the best deckers of their time.

All buses are prone to corrosion sooner or later, pace the thread about the Scania Metropolitans.

I was just a lowly driver, so underlying corrosion issues with Palatine II-bodied Olympians never came to my attention during my walk-round check before taking the vehicle out. I can recall more than one occasion, when inspecting a Plaxton Verde-bodied Lance, the rear mudflaps only being there because the tinworms were holding hands!

 

[Jordan Adam]

All buses are prone to corrosion sooner or later, pace the thread about the Scania Metropolitans.

That is true however the early Volvo Olympians particularly up to N Reg were more prone due to Volvo using poorer quality "cheaper" metals to construct the chassis in an attempt to clear the outstanding Leyland orders faster.

 

[CN04NRJ]

With all due respect as a driver, the build quality of gemini B9 tls is not the best. For one they leak like sieves in the wet. So much so the demister heats the water in the bulkhead and steams up your screen. Unless you wad metros in it to soak up the water. Similar story with b7 rle's as above but rattle like god knows what cab window springs to mind. Plus they normally have lousy heating

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Feb 2021 ==


I would agree on olympian's

I find the later B9TLs are pretty rattly, especially some of the ex London ones and 926/7 and 301-400 - I particularly don't like driving the 11 plate 3XXs for that reason. The earlier ones are pretty solid in my experience.

The 13 plate B7RLEs (186-190) that I've driven seem pretty well put together but the older ones were terribly rattly bar a few of the 07's- the 04/55 plates were especially bad.

They've got nothing on the Wright Scania Solars I drove in Cardiff though, needed new ear drums and a spine replacement after a stint in one of them!

 

[Swanny200]

Also you have to consider, it is like a car, if you use it and abuse it every day, it will eventually have problems, whereas if it is a one careful owner doing 1000 miles a year, then it may be better looked after. A decent fleet manager and a smaller bus company that has an owner who wants the buses tip top every day will still be running round in some of these buses that the big 4 companies will be sending to the scrapyard or off to other group fleets to rot.

In saying that, a lot of Optare and Wright's earlier offerings were night and day compared to what other bodybuilders offered in terms of comfort and quality.