Where will the Class 377/5s be used...

[mackenzie_blu]

It does makes sense to make some fasts onto the network in one sense but whats the point of fast services when crawl once they get to SPILL and into the SE metro system? Semi-stoppers seem to fit the TL pattern so much better.

Why not have 6 car 378 on the Moorgate branch to Finsbury Park and 8 car services on the Hertford Loop? Maybe even feed it to the ELR or NLR?

 

[Aictos]

Why not have 6 car 378 on the Moorgate branch to Finsbury Park and 8 car services on the Hertford Loop? Maybe even feed it to the ELR or NLR?

I like this, keep the branch line as it is and run services from Finsbury Park though to Stratford where they could change ends and run to Richmond then have services from Richmond do the same in reverse!

Then have 8 car services on the Hertford Loop as all stations have room to be extended although only northbound although Hertford would need some work done to the bridge there to cater for the platforms being extended.

 

[Tom C]

Something which confuses me is what will happen to the Sutton loop when the bays reopen at Blackfriars. We all now know that the Luton/St Albans to Sutton/Wimbledon service will become Blackfriars to Sutton/Wimbledon but will this stay as part of the FCC franchise or will it be removed and put into the Southern or possibly even LOROL franchise.

As it becomes a DC only service, I cannot see them wasting 319's (and they would never use 377's anyway) when they can be best used elsewhere so will FCC get DC only stock or can we expect a change of operator.

 

[johnb]

1) if the GN connection to Thameslink isn't used, it won't be because of the direct cost of installing it, but rather because the London Bridge/Borough work gets scaled down, cancelled or delayed. Without the new flyovers etc south of the river, Thameslink only has enough capacity for the current MML commuter service.

2) assuming TL to GN does go ahead, the trains on it *will* be semifasts, because the Thameslink stock will be 100mph and Network Rail and DfT want to remove all sub-125mph trains from the fast lines.

3) splitting the Hertford service from the Northern City Line service would be crazy, as the vast majority of demand on that route is for commuter services to the City. The Underground from Finsbury Park is already overloaded, and reversing Northern City trains at Finsbury Park would either massively eat platform capacity (if a cross-platform interchange were provided with KX-bound trains), or require massive use of the overcrowded, narrow subway. And the link from FP to the NLL is only single track with no flyover, so would be operationally nightmarish-to-impossible to use.

4) All the relevant franchises (SN, SE and FCC) will be re-let and re-organised around the time Thameslink opens. It's not yet clear what the new map will be - the operator that runs Thameslink services may or may not also run GN Moorgate services, SN London Bridge services, SE London Bridge services, etc.

At that point, Thameslink won't use 319s but rather newly developed stock (because current stock doesn't have the accelleration, braking and ATO capabilities to meet the proposed timetable between Blackfriars and St Pancras). The Sutton loop won't need those capabilities, so it's most likely to end up operated by some kind of suburban Electrostar.

 

[mackenzie_blu]

1) if the GN connection to Thameslink isn't used, it won't be because of the direct cost of installing it, but rather because the London Bridge/Borough work gets scaled down, cancelled or delayed. Without the new flyovers etc south of the river, Thameslink only has enough capacity for the current MML commuter service.

If they do scale anything to the London Bridge side down then there little point of the entire TLP programme as this is the major pinch point. The problem is London Bridge is a major destination all day for TL trains so dropping the flyover will hit this hard. Not to mention that either Charing Cross trains lose paths or more 12 car trains run into the Core fast through South London.

2) assuming TL to GN does go ahead, the trains on it *will* be semifasts, because the Thameslink stock will be 100mph and Network Rail and DfT want to remove all sub-125mph trains from the fast lines.

Are you sure the stock is going to be limited to 100mph?

3) splitting the Hertford service from the Northern City Line service would be crazy, as the vast majority of demand on that route is for commuter services to the City. The Underground from Finsbury Park is already overloaded, and reversing Northern City trains at Finsbury Park would either massively eat platform capacity (if a cross-platform interchange were provided with KX-bound trains), or require massive use of the overcrowded, narrow subway. And the link from FP to the NLL is only single track with no flyover, so would be operationally nightmarish-to-impossible to use.

This I don't know loads about but will let Ajax reply as he's the GN side guy! One thing is for sure, no running onto the NLL is goning to be happening as the line is gonna be alot busier by the time the TLP is finished.

4) All the relevant franchises (SN, SE and FCC) will be re-let and re-organised around the time Thameslink opens. It's not yet clear what the new map will be - the operator that runs Thameslink services may or may not also run GN Moorgate services, SN London Bridge services, SE London Bridge services, etc.

Well the plan is for stopping services between East Croydon and London Bridge to become part of the Thameslink network once this is all finished. In fact part of the second phase involves some joint services with Southern hence the reason why 3 377/2 are due to return to TL in 2011.

At that point, Thameslink won't use 319s but rather newly developed stock (because current stock doesn't have the accelleration, braking and ATO capabilities to meet the proposed timetable between Blackfriars and St Pancras). The Sutton loop won't need those capabilities, so it's most likely to end up operated by some kind of suburban Electrostar.

Well the new stock will be in full service before the final enginerring work if it all goes to plan. We will soon know what the new stock is able to do when the winner is announced early next year. As for the Loop trains, the new NXEMU are supposed to be taking over the loop trains but as for the TOC running them is expected to be the South Central franchise when its relet in 2015.

 

[Aictos]

Well the Green Party were looking at building a new tunnel from Moorgate to Bank then upgrade the Waterloo and City then terminate at Richmond, offering though services from either Welwyn Garden City or Hertford North - look up the NCL article on wikipedia for the link.

I know the traction was going to be the 313s with the W and C traction being cascaded elsewhere.

Having said that, the 313s we're getting from LOROL won't make their FCC debut until May or Dec 2010 which will give time to get them refurbished to FCC standards.

 

[johnb]

If they do scale anything to the London Bridge side down then there little point of the entire TLP programme as this is the major pinch point. The problem is London Bridge is a major destination all day for TL trains so dropping the flyover will hit this hard. Not to mention that either Charing Cross trains lose paths or more 12 car trains run into the Core fast through South London.

There are two points of the TL programme: one is to allow 12-car running, the other is to sort out capacity south of Blackfriars. I agree that cancelling or delaying the second would be silly, but it's definitely been mooted.

Are you sure the (TL) stock is going to be limited to 100mph?

No, but the spec doesn't require 125mph running, so I'd be surprised if the bidders included it.

Well the plan is for stopping services between East Croydon and London Bridge to become part of the Thameslink network once this is all finished. In fact part of the second phase involves some joint services with Southern hence the reason why 3 377/2 are due to return to TL in 2011.

Indeed yes. The question is, what happens to the LB services (terminators, ex-CX and ex-CS) that don't become part of Thameslink, and in parallel to that what happens to the Blackfriars bay services. I don't think this has yet been resolved for any of them.

Well the new stock will be in full service before the final enginerring work if it all goes to plan. We will soon know what the new stock is able to do when the winner is announced early next year. As for the Loop trains, the new NXEMU are supposed to be taking over the loop trains but as for the TOC running them is expected to be the South Central franchise when its relet in 2015.

If the Blackfriars terminators are run using the new Thameslink EMU, I'll be surprised: they don't need that level of performance.

 

[mackenzie_blu]

There are two points of the TL programme: one is to allow 12-car running, the other is to sort out capacity south of Blackfriars. I agree that cancelling or delaying the second would be silly, but it's definitely been mooted.

Mooted yes but no-one on the ground is talking about it but we may have to wait to see what happens after the new government is in as they would be the ones to cancel the second phase of TLP.

No, but the spec doesn't require 125mph running, so I'd be surprised if the bidders included it.

Id like to think they will have 125mph to do service recovery (like the Javelin's and the 140mph) but your likely right.

Indeed yes. The question is, what happens to the LB services (terminators, ex-CX and ex-CS) that don't become part of Thameslink, and in parallel to that what happens to the Blackfriars bay services. I don't think this has yet been resolved for any of them.

Well why would the CS stoppers be affected? I thought only SE services went there and the TL services will be completely seperate from them unless they really do screw up London Bridge again. I believe the terminating issue is still yet to be worked out.

If the Blackfriars terminators are run using the new Thameslink EMU, I'll be surprised: they don't need that level of performance.

Well the whole point for this is the fact what would run the Sutton/Wimbledon services are all the 319's will be gone. Doubt Southern would have enough stock to run this service without shortening other services.