Where will the Class 377/5s be used...

[MCR247]

...with Southern? Since they are dual-voltage, with this mean they might be used on extending the MK - East Croydon service to Brighton

 

[37401]

In April 2007, as part of the Route Utilisation Strategy for the Brighton Main Line, it was announced that Southern would obtain an additional 48 Class 377 carriages

FCC not southern

 

[MCR247]

FCC not southern

The 377/5s are Southerns, being subleased to FCC. If you see photos, they have SN interiors

 

[Aictos]

The 377/5s are Southerns, being subleased to FCC. If you see photos, they have SN interiors

And being subsubleased to SouthEastern to work services from Blackfriars to destinations in Kent.

As all services south of Blackfriars to Kent regardless of who leases the train from the ROSCO is automatically considered a SE service while all services north of Blackfriars are automatically considered a FCC service even if it's a SE driver taking it to Bedford!

In all seriousness, it can be confusing but who knows what routes Southern will use them on when they get them back when our brand new Thameslink trains start running over the much enlarged TL route in 2012/2015.

I've seen maps of the proposed services and it looks like a little brother version of NSE!!!

 

[MCR247]

ajax: Do you know what trains will run from GN routes to TL routes when KO0 is over?

 

[thelem]

More specifically, the 377/5s are owned by Porterbrook, leased to Govia (as Southern), subleased to First (Capital Connect) then subsubleased subhired to Govia (as South Eastern)

Edit: as Edvid points out - I think subhired is very short term (in this case one return journey), and doesn't imply any maintainence responsibility, whereas FCC will be expected to carry out the day to day maintainence.

 

[Edvid]

Almost right - replace 'subsubleased' with 'subhired'. There is a difference but I can't remember what it is ATM.

 

[MCR247]

More specifically, the 377/5s are owned by Porterbrook, leased to Govia (as Southern), subleased to First (Capital Connect) then subsubleased to Govia (as South Eastern)

Why SE? I thought they Gillingham/Ashford trains were joint

 

[clagmonster]

On this subject, when the Thameslink capacity enhancements are completed, a lot of exisitng emus besides the 319s and 375s will be replaced. The will include a decent chunk of Hornsey's fleet of 317s and 365s for the Great Northern lines, if not all of them. On the Southern region, I beleive the Thameslink services are to take over most of the south-central division outer suburban services from London Bridge, currently operated by 377s. What will happen to those units?
One destination that I can see is the South Central division inner suburban 10 car project. There are only 24 456s and 46 455s, so you could have 23 sets of 455+455+455. Of course this would leave some inner suburban diagrams uncovered so they could become class 377s, possibly in conjunction with some 3 car sets.
There are then schemes new electrification, which the DfT have already stated will use units displaced from Thameslink. At present Reading depot have 58 Turbo units for use on suburban services from Paddington. The branches are not included in the present electrification scheme, so we can discount half a dozen there. Also, Crossrail will absorb the Paddington-Reading locals, which probably accounts for another 10 units. Do Turbos still work Cotsold services?
Then there is the Chat Moss scheme. I believe a service of 4 trains an hour is proposed, which would probebly need 10 units. There is also the possibility of class 323s from the West Mids working some or all services.
So if 45 EMUs go to the Western region, and another 10 go to Manchester, this would probably leave us with around 80 units spare.

 

[Edvid]

Why SE? I thought they Gillingham/Ashford trains were joint

They're joint services insofar as FCC/SER are responsible north/south of London Blackfriars respectively. Needless to say the third 'layer' (SER subhire) only applies during SER responsibility.

 

[mackenzie_blu]

Why SE? I thought they Gillingham/Ashford trains were joint

They are and they aren't!

The Sevenoaks service is a proper joint effort with both FCC and SE drivers taking the train all the way.

The SE drivers never take trains north of City and certainly not to Bedford! The main hand over point is Blackfriars due to the drivers depot there tho I dont think many drivers are 377 trained. Blackfriars drivers tend to do Sevenoaks and Loop services.

The different with the Gillingham/Ashford's is there is a complete staff change with the units actually having a guard south of Blackfriars. This isn't the case for the Sevenoaks trains.

As for the map Ajax spoke of, here's the first verison. Its a fair silmar to whats expected once you take off the Guildford and Victoria trains.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mackenzieblu/3781226382/

 

[Aictos]

ajax: Do you know what trains will run from GN routes to TL routes when KO0 is over?

Not at this precise moment in time but I would say Cambridge/Kings Lynn and Peterborough services will be diverted to go onto the Thameslink with the Welwyn/Hertford/Stevenage services using either Moorgate or running into Kings Cross.

I say Stevenage as by then hopefully a new platform will be built at Stevenage which will will would mean instead of the Hertford trains having to turnround at Letchworth and occupy the slow lines between Langley Junction and Letchworth, they could terminate in the new platform which would release some paths for other services to use.

By doing this, the service between Hertford and Stevenage could easily be increased to a twice hourly service instead of a hourly service as it is at the moment with the service via Hertford being reduced to a hourly service after midnight until 4am.

Although I'm very interested in the project and try to keep on top on all the gen!

They are and they aren't!

The Sevenoaks service is a proper joint effort with both FCC and SE drivers taking the train all the way.

That's quite correct.

The SE drivers never take trains north of City and certainly not to Bedford! The main hand over point is Blackfriars due to the drivers depot there tho I dont think many drivers are 377 trained. Blackfriars drivers tend to do Sevenoaks and Loop services.

You are mistaken this time as I had a trip up to Bedford with one of the members here who I know at head office and we had a SE driver work the service back from Bedford to Gillingham and there wasn't a FCC driver route conducting either.

So seeing as a SE driver can work southbound from Bedford, there's nothing preventing them from working northbound to Bedford.

The different with the Gillingham/Ashford's is there is a complete staff change with the units actually having a guard south of Blackfriars. This isn't the case for the Sevenoaks trains.

I didn't know that, interesting....

As for the map Ajax spoke of, here's the first version. Its a fair similar to what's expected once you take off the Guildford and Victoria trains.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mackenzieblu/3781226382/

Thought you might like that little cheap pop advertising your work,

As to cascading of existing rolling stock I had read on either a NR/DFT/FCC document that all rolling stock will be cascaded to other routes except the 313s.

Please don't ask me to find it as it was one of the these things I read and forgot to save or print off a hard copy.

 

[johnb]

The legal framework for the SET/FCC joint services is that it's an FCC service north of Blackfriars and an SET service south of Blackfriars. It can be operated by crews from either (as long as they're route and stock trained, obviously). It's the same setup as Heathrow Connect, which is a normal FGW service between Paddington and Hayes even though it's operated by Heathrow Express drivers and trains.

Bit confused by the 2015 map - I though the plan was for Guildford services to go via East Croydon rather than Wimbledon?

 

[mackenzie_blu]

Bit confused by the 2015 map - I though the plan was for Guildford services to go via East Croydon rather than Wimbledon?

As far as I know the original plan was always via Sutton tho it seems Guildford has been dropped. I have finally updated the map and loaded it onto my flickr. direct link is

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mackenzieblu/3815666210/
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You are mistaken this time as I had a trip up to Bedford with one of the members here who I know at head office and we had a SE driver work the service back from Bedford to Gillingham and there wasn't a FCC driver route conducting either.

So seeing as a SE driver can work southbound from Bedford, there's nothing preventing them from working northbound to Bedford.

Now that is interesting as I was told that none of the Southeastern drivers knew futher than Farringdon. I will check the FCC drivers diagrams to see which of the service is cleared for Southeastern drivers. Im just trying to think of a time Ive not seen a replacement driver for the peak 377 SE services. Don't suppose you know what depot the driver was from?

I can't see them actually working a northbound as they change drivers every day. I know as Im always seeing what info (or which ones will actually talk to me) I can get from them when they change platforms in peak to go back to their depot/next service.

 

[westcoaster]

here goes

3 joint 377 services iirc

nb 2x se not 100% on this but defo 1x fcc driver
sb 2xse 1x fcc (ashford service as far as blackfriars)

319 sevenoaks services there is a mix and match of se and fcc drivers, se drivers go all the way to bedford, as fcc drivers go to sevenoaks

i believe its only certain victoria and orpington drivers who go north of city thameslink, and only bedford link 2 and blackfriars who go onto se territory.

 

[johnb]

@mckenzie_blu: interesting you're including the Sutton loop services there - is there any reason to think that (since they'll terminate at Blackfriars) they'll go to the new Thameslink franchise, rather than the new Southeastern?

 

[16CSVT2700]

There are then schemes new electrification, which the DfT have already stated will use units displaced from Thameslink. At present Reading depot have 58 Turbo units for use on suburban services from Paddington. The branches are not included in the present electrification scheme, so we can discount half a dozen there. Also, Crossrail will absorb the Paddington-Reading locals, which probably accounts for another 10 units. Do Turbos still work Cotsold services?
.

The 319s do not have the acceleration required for Crossrail.
Turbos do indeed work Oxford and Cotswold services, my station working book can tell you which ones are booked Turbo. Whether they stick to the diagrams is another story.

 

[mackenzie_blu]

@mckenzie_blu: interesting you're including the Sutton loop services there - is there any reason to think that (since they'll terminate at Blackfriars) they'll go to the new Thameslink franchise, rather than the new Southeastern?

There is still a chance they will go to the Thameslink Franchise. After all with Southern losing the stations between New Cross Gate and Anerley/Norwood Junction (can't remember how far down they lose) this year, there is still a chance.

Still think its bizzare that there is going to be a peak service from Norwood Junction through the Core.

 

[philjo]

Not at this precise moment in time but I would say Cambridge/Kings Lynn and Peterborough services will be diverted to go onto the Thameslink with the Welwyn/Hertford/Stevenage services using either Moorgate or running into Kings Cross.

I say Stevenage as by then hopefully a new platform will be built at Stevenage which will will would mean instead of the Hertford trains having to turnround at Letchworth and occupy the slow lines between Langley Junction and Letchworth, they could terminate in the new platform which would release some paths for other services to use.

By doing this, the service between Hertford and Stevenage could easily be increased to a twice hourly service instead of a hourly service as it is at the moment with the service via Hertford being reduced to a hourly service after midnight until 4am.

As I understand it, the Kings Lynn/Cambridge fast services will still use Kings Cross (using some of the electric half-sets of the proposed IEP rolling stock) - there was a question about this on a previous FCC managers online forum session
The existing semi-fast & stoppers from Cambridge/Peterborough would go onto the TL

Once the Hitchin flyover is opened, I think one option being considered is to extend all Hertford trains to Letchworth to give increased service levels for Stevenage-Letchworth - currently the capacity for Northbound trains crossing the junction at Hitchin prevents this.

 

[Aictos]

Well I think the only reason the current service exists between Stevenage and Watton At Stone is simply because there is not capacity at Stevenage as Hertford Loop services are restricted to using platform 4 at Stevenage, what should happen is a extra platform signalled for bi directional useage at Stevenage then the increased services via Hertford could use it and the same platform could be used if viable for trains on the proposed East West Railway. With the freed up paths, with the Hertfords starting and terminating at Stevennage instead of Letchworth is to permit more trains though Hitchin from both Peterborough and Cambridge plus more connections are available at Stevenage seeing as NXEC stop there and FHT have limited stops there as well.

 

[Class377]

Sorry if this is the wrong place, but do you know which morning BED-BTN and which afternoon BTN-BED services run 377s?

 

[Edvid]

Check out the timetable I've attached (courtesy of mackenzie_blu). Out of the 15 planned diagrams, 12 of them are currently filled by 377s (of which 8 are always 601-604/610/611/614/615, the other 4 tend to change regularly).

If you want to know more about their current whereabouts etc, there's the massive 'Thameslink Programme' thread.

 

[Class377]

Thank you very much indeed, incredibly helpful.
So will be heading there and back in my favourite class, hehe!

EDIT: So all the times there are served by 377s every day?

 

[paul1609]

Personally I think the existing FCC, Southern and Southeastern franchise will only be one or two franchises when relet. The Kings Lynn/ Cambridge fast services will go to NXEC or its succesor at the same time. Theres still a possibility that the current Kings Cross services will not be linked to Thameslink as a cost saver.

 

[jon0844]

That would surely make inner-suburban services on FCC part of NXEC too (or it's successor) which wouldn't make that much sense would it? What about services into Moorgate?

Oh, wait - that could become part of London Overground. Actually, that would be a very good idea - especially if it meant all stations being manned at all times of operation.

 

[Fincra5]

One destination that I can see is the South Central division inner suburban 10 car project. There are only 24 456s and 46 455s, so you could have 23 sets of 455+455+455. Of course this would leave some inner suburban diagrams uncovered so they could become class 377s, possibly in conjunction with some 3 car sets.

This is planned to happen. And will do if southern recieve a number of class 313s cascaded from London Overground. which will, as mentioned before, replace the 3car class 377s on services from Brighton-Seaford & Brighton-West Worthing. The replaced 377's will go to london to strengthen a few trains in london to 10car.

Personally i think the class 313's are suited to the sort distance stops on the Brighton-Seaford & Brighton-West Worthing line.

 

[Aictos]

That would surely make inner-suburban services on FCC part of NXEC too (or it's successor) which wouldn't make that much sense would it? What about services into Moorgate?

Oh, wait - that could become part of London Overground. Actually, that would be a very good idea - especially if it meant all stations being manned at all times of operation.

Well there were plans back in 2006 by Transport for London to take over the routes to St Albans, Welwyn Garden City and Hertford North (Although they really ought to extended the Hertford Loop services to Watton At Stone seeing as it's the last station on the line before Stevenage).

Running the services under the LOROL banner but using the Thameslink or Great Northern sub branding.

Having said that though, the staffing of the booking offices need to be improved on the Hertford line alone seeing as on Sundays, only Cuffley is open despite no posters going up and no new timetables with the new opening times being produced!

Having booking offices close earlier then needed or not opening at all at weekends limits the options for passengers wanting to buy tickets which aren't available from the TVMs mainly because the TVMs can't issue them or because they get vandalised or maybe because the Revenue Staff on the gatelines are restricted to how much they can actually take - I think it's about £150 before they have to go back to their depot and cash it in which the more busier booking offices can make in minutes.

It might even mean opening a booking office at Bayford and Crews Hill which currently are unmanned.

 

[johnb]

It's pretty much certain in the north (unless the second phase of the Thameslink Project is delayed or cancelled by the new government, which is highly doubtful now that a multi-year depression is looking unlikely) that:

1) semi-fast now-FCC services to Kings Cross will be diverted into St Pancras and on to London Bridge. They'll be operated by the Thameslink operator.

2) fast now-FCC services to Kings Cross will be run by IEPs at 125mph. They'll be operated by the East Coast operator

The interesting bit is the Moorgate slows. A handover to TfL could work... but my money's probably on them staying with the Thameslink operator.

 

[mackenzie_blu]

Well TfL are wanting more and more rail lines in London and the Moorgate line is ideal. Highbury & Islington, Old Street and Moorgate are all ready run by TfL and I know Ajax would like to see some new 378's serving the branch as well as the Line to Stevenage tho I dont the current seating arrangements would work well for some customers.

As for the point GN services not being linked to the TL side, bit of a waste if they did they. They just need to do the strack, OHLE and pout a few signals in. In fact our train tracking software shows a linke from SPILL to the GN side already.

We also have to remember that the TLP rolling stock project is a way off from being final. The trains and mix is yet to be decided as IEP half sets could still have a role to play.

 

[Aictos]

Well TfL are wanting more and more rail lines in London and the Moorgate line is ideal. Highbury & Islington, Old Street and Moorgate are all ready run by TfL and I know Ajax would like to see some new 378's serving the branch as well as the Line to Stevenage tho I dont the current seating arrangements would work well for some customers.

This is the problem, ideally I would like to see 8 car trains run between London and Stevenage via Hertford/Welwyn but the Moorgate branch restricts it to 6 car operation.

Which is where the 378s come in... Although I would like to see 317s as the traction or 377s?

As for the point GN services not being linked to the TL side, bit of a waste if they did they. They just need to do the strack, OHLE and pout a few signals in. In fact our train tracking software shows a linke from SPILL to the GN side already.

I don't think the semi fasts or stoppers should go onto the TL route rather we should have services like the Cambridge Cruiser carry onto the TL route.

We also have to remember that the TLP rolling stock project is a way off from being final. The trains and mix is yet to be decided as IEP half sets could still have a role to play.

Yeah, IEP on Kings Lynns and Peterboroughs,