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Where to draw the line between coach and bus services?

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Hello, I know that in the long history of the forum this question has probably been asked many times, but I'm asking again. Where do we draw the line between coach and bus travel? is it the vehicle type, concessionary pass acceptance, or something totally different. I think Scottish Citylink(Specifically the 915/916) is a good example. Would you count this as a local bus journey (It accepts concessionary passes and has regular stops) or a coach journey (It is operated by a coach and runs over a long distance)? Any answers and opinions appreciated.
 
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etr221

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The line I would draw is whether advance ticket purchase (for a specific journey)/reservation is required or expected - in which case it's a coach service - or not (either not available, or not expected) - in which case it's a bus service.

As concessionary pass (for the elderly - i.e. "English National Concessionary Scheme", and I believe those for other parts of the UK) is specified as being for 'local' services (i.e. services registered as such), I would regard its acceptance as another indicator (that it's a bus rather than "coach" service).

The traditional distinction between bus (stage) and coach (express) services, established under the 1930 Road Traffic Act, was that express services had a minimum fare of one shilling (5p in decimal money) - I don't know whether or when this was changed. (In 1930 I would expect stage service fares to start at 1d (i.e. one old penny), to put this in perspective).
 
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P Binnersley

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The traditional distinction between bus (stage) and coach (express) services, established under the 1930 Road Traffic Act, was that express services had a minimum fare of one shilling (5p in decimal money) - I don't whether or when this was changed. (In 1930 I would expect stage service fares to start at 1d (i.e. one old penny), to put this in perspective).
Repealed by the Road Traffic Act 1960 (c. 16), Sch. 18 Pt. I
 

Gaelan

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As far as I’m aware, all coach operators with significant Scottish operations (not National Express despite their Edinburgh-Glasgow service) accept concessionary bus passes, so that’s not a particularly useful metric.
 

GusB

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Hello, I know that in the long history of the forum this question has probably been asked many times, but I'm asking again. Where do we draw the line between coach and bus travel? is it the vehicle type, concessionary pass acceptance, or something totally different. I think Scottish Citylink(Specifically the 915/916) is a good example. Would you count this as a local bus journey (It accepts concessionary passes and has regular stops) or a coach journey (It is operated by a coach and runs over a long distance)? Any answers and opinions appreciated.
Would you like a tin opener to go with that can of worms? ;)

Firstly, the acceptance of concessionary passes isn't really a good indicator; the rules in England and Scotland are different (I have no knowledge of the schemes in Wales and Northern Ireland, so I can't comment on them). My dad used to travel on the Citylink/Megabus Gold services with his pass and they certainly couldn't be classed as bus routes.

Regarding Citylink, while it more or less functions as a local stopping service in some rural areas, it was intended to be a coach network that provided a common brand to the network of longer-distance services that were operated by Scottish Bus Group subsidiary companies. The name "Scottish Citylink Coaches" also reflects this. A coach service doesn't necessarily have to be "express", and indeed many of the Citylink services that I travelled on in my younger days were "stoppers", particularly heading south from Aberdeen and Inverness where they stopped at most of the smaller towns along the A92 and A9 respectively. "Flyer" services along those routes weren't very common at the time and, if I recall correctly, those that did usually only operated on Fridays and Sundays, presumably catering for the student market.

The line I would draw is whether advance ticket purchase (for a specific journey)/reservation is required or expected - in which case it's a coach service - or not (either not available, or not expected) - in which case it's a bus service.
Perhaps that should read "available", rather than "required or expected". I've booked coach journeys in the past when I've known my travel plans in advance, but much of the time I've travelled "standby" and tickets were always available from the driver. The advent of web bookings and demand-based pricing has obviously changed the situation over the years. I wouldn't expect to turn up and go these days because I'd be paying much more for the journey on a walk-up basis than I would if I'd booked online.

Personally, I'd say that it's the choice of vehicle that really determines what makes a bus or a coach service. On a coach service you'd expect to have a vehicle that has high-backed, reclining seats; a toilet is probably desirable, but not strictly necessary.

Let's take the Stagecoach Bluebird 10, Inverness to Aberdeen service, as an example. In my living memory this has always been a coach service, having been Citylink 540/960 and then 560 when the route was no longer operated as a Citylink route. There was always a mixed bag of vehicles that were used, but it was more or less guaranteed that you'd get one that had recliners, even though they were no longer in the prime of their lives.

I wouldn't class it as a coach route now, though. Despite introducing batches of dedicated vehicles such as the original Volvo B10M/Plaxton Interurban and the more recent Volvo B11R/Plaxton Elite, these are more "dual purpose" specification and there is no guarantee that one will turn up. The last few times I've been in town, I've noticed that the 10 has had Enviro 400s on it; I certainly wouldn't enjoy a trip on one of them all the way to Aberdeen!
 

Roger1973

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I may be completely missing the point here, but doesn't it depend whether or not it's a registered local bus service?

A local bus service uses public service vehicles (PSVs) to carry passengers who pay separate fares over short distances.


The route can be any length, as long as passengers can get off within 15 miles (measured in a straight line) of where they got on.

From Government website here.

Acceptance of concessionary passes derives from this (albeit with other factors thrown in.)

The type of vehicle isn't really relevant - for example at Luton Airport bus station, you might have adjacent stands where there are two vehicles on adjacent stands, both outwardly 'coaches' in terms of vehicle specification, and both going to London Victoria. One is on Arriva / Green Line 757 which is registered local bus, one is on a National Express route that isn't.

And to add to the complication, some National Express routes (or bits of them) have in the past been registered as local bus services. I'm a bit out of touch with the detail of National Express services, so not sure if that's the case any more.
 

danm14

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I have no knowledge of the schemes in Wales and Northern Ireland, so I can't comment on them
A distinction between "bus" and "coach" does not exist on the island of Ireland, whether in terms of concessionary travel schemes or in general use of language.

Any bus/coach based public transport service is universally referred to as a "bus", whether it's a long distance non-stop coach service, a door-to-door rural minibus service or a regular town/city bus service. Concessionary travel can be used on all of them (as well as all trains and many local ferries).

The term "coach" is only ever used to refer to private group travel, tours and special excursions such as to football matches or concerts - or to the type of vehicle itself - and all of these are just as often referred to as "buses" too!
 

Fleetmaster

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A distinction between "bus" and "coach" does not exist on the island of Ireland, whether in terms of concessionary travel schemes or in general use of language.

Any bus/coach based public transport service is universally referred to as a "bus", whether it's a long distance non-stop coach service, a door-to-door rural minibus service or a regular town/city bus service. Concessionary travel can be used on all of them (as well as all trains and many local ferries).

The term "coach" is only ever used to refer to private group travel, tours and special excursions such as to football matches or concerts - or to the type of vehicle itself - and all of these are just as often referred to as "buses" too!
The government calls Goldline an express coach service.
 
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danm14

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The government calls Goldline an express coach service.
The only place Goldline is referred to as an express coach service is Translink marketing blurb, which happens to also be included on the NI Direct government website.

The term "coach" is not used on the island of Ireland, either in everyday usage or in legal terms (whether relating to concessionary fares, route/vehicle/operator licensing or anything else for that matter) to refer to any sort of public transport service - both buses and coaches (in the English sense of the terms) are "buses".

The only people I have ever heard refer to any public transport service on either side of the border in Ireland as a "coach" are English people living in or visiting Ireland.
 

Fleetmaster

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The only place Goldline is referred to as an express coach service is Translink marketing blurb, which happens to also be included on the NI Direct government website.

The term "coach" is not used on the island of Ireland, either in everyday usage or in legal terms (whether relating to concessionary fares, route/vehicle/operator licensing or anything else for that matter) to refer to any sort of public transport service - both buses and coaches (in the English sense of the terms) are "buses".

The only people I have ever heard refer to any public transport service on either side of the border in Ireland as a "coach" are English people living in or visiting Ireland.
It's hardly a matter worth arguing about, but I can't help but point out how plausible it seems to me that non-English tourists (particularly non-native English speakers) might approach a local asking them where the express coach service to Ballymena leaves from, having researched their transport options in the logical place, the operator's marketing materials. Presumably they aren't going to be greeted with blank stares or an anti-English lecture on True Irishness. If only in large part because Goldline vehicles are all (AFAIK) "coaches" in Irish English.

As an aside, what is the purported explanation for this difference in terminology across the Irish Sea, given the island of Ireland surely had horse drawn Stagecoaches before the motor bus (which is my understanding of where coach service derives from, in parallel to coach as a vehicle)?

And on the flip side, I guarantee nobody in England is ever viewed as strange or linguistically challenged for asking someone in Birmingham where to catch the bus to Glasgow.
 

Roilshead

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The term "coach" is not used on the island of Ireland
eh? Aircoach for one. The term coach is widely-used on web-sites and in the promotion of services, and and I've heard coach and bus used interchangeably both north and south of the border when referring to express services, and certainly coach in conjunction with tourist services - in years travelling and residing on both sides of the Irish Sea I've never neen struck by any difference usage of either term.
 

STINT47

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A strange example near me is Trentbarton's Red Arrow.

Derby to Nottingham, a relativley short route both in terms of distance and time plus registered as a PSV servic. You also cannot buy or reserve in advance but concessionary passes are not valid on it.

It normally uses coaches but low floor often make an appearence and I often wonder why is not classed as a local service.
 
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