Where should the penalty fare be issued from?

[Whopper]

A passenger is travelling from Taunton to Bristol Temple Meads holding a valid ticket from Taunton to Bridgwater. The next stop on the service is Worle. Where should a penalty fare be issued from and to?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

What are the booked calls / station stops for the particular train in question?

 

[Whopper]

All stations

 

[RPI]

PF from Taunton to Worle then Anytime Single Worle to Bristol TM

 

[Watershed]

PF from Taunton to Worle then Anytime Single Worle to Bristol TM

Although it's also open to the passenger to just opt for the Penalty Fare, and buy an Off-Peak single/return from Worle to Bristol TM by means of an e-ticket on their phone, provided they manage to do so before the train leaves Worle.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Assuming the passenger has over travelled on their ticket beyond Bridgwater, I would say the PF should be twice the single fare from Bridgwater to Worle (this would thus be the minimum £20 as the Anytime Single here is £8) then the passenger also needs to pay the fare due from Worle to Bristol TM if staying on the train.

 

[RPI]

Although it's also open to the passenger to just opt for the Penalty Fare, and buy an Off-Peak single/return from Worle to Bristol TM by means of an e-ticket on their phone, provided they manage to do so before the train leaves Worle.

Absolutely and in reality I would probably sell the off-peak ticket onwards, but would you say that the correct PF would be to issue from Taunton and not Bridgwater?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Oct 2022 ==

Assuming the passenger has over travelled on their ticket beyond Bridgwater, I would say the PF should be twice the single fare from Bridgwater to Worle (this would thus be the minimum £20 as the Anytime Single here is £8) then the passenger also needs to pay the fare due from Worle to Bristol TM if staying on the train.

But they haven't boarded at Bridgwater

 

[Whopper]

Penalty fare regs state from where the passenger boarded the train, no mention of the end of validity of any ticket held.

 

[Watershed]

Absolutely and in reality I would probably sell the off-peak ticket onwards, but would you say that the correct PF would be to issue from Taunton and not Bridgwater?

Yes - Regulations 9(2) and 9(3) of the Penalty Fares Regulations state:

(2) In paragraph (1), “the full single fare applicable” is the full single fare for the journey in question from the boarding station ...

(3) In paragraph (2), “the boarding station” means—
(a) the station at which the person boarded the train; or
(b) where the station mentioned in sub-paragraph (a) is not known to the collector, the station at which the train last made a scheduled call.

So in this instance, if the RPI didn't know where the passenger boarded and the train had already departed Bridgwater, the passenger would actually be acting against their own interests by producing a ticket suggesting they've boarded at Taunton!

At the moment it's a bit of a moot point as the fare from either station to Worle is less than £10 - so a Penalty Fare is £20 either way. But once the formula is increased to £50/100 plus the fare (as has been consulted on), it will make more of a difference.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Penalty fare regs state from where the passenger boarded the train, no mention of the end of validity of any ticket held.

I'm certainly persuaded by your argument, but it does seem a tad unfair that the passenger could be PF'd for a section of their journey for which they did already hold a valid ticket. Essentially, they could end up paying (nearly?) three times the fare for the initial Taunton->Bridgwater leg of their journey.

 

[Watershed]

I'm persuaded by your argument, but it does seem a tad unfair that the passenger could be PF'd for a section of their journey for which they did already hold a valid ticket. Essentially, they could end up having to pay (nearly?) three times the fare for the initial Taunton->Bridgwater leg of their journey.

Unfortunately that's how the rules stand; I suppose it's intended to act as a disincentive to short-faring in this manner.

 

[Trainbike46]

Related to this, what are the rules regarding buying an overdistance excess? can you buy it on board provided you buy it before your ticket's validity ends? or would you have to buy one before boarding?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Unfortunately that's how the rules stand; I suppose it's intended to act as a disincentive to short-faring in this manner.

Or did no-one think about short-faring when the rules were written?

 

[Birmingham]

This is quite interesting. In your example, the passenger holds a ticket for a minority of their journey, but the same rules apply where the passenger holds a ticket for the majority of their journey.

Say passenger is travelling from London to Plymouth with a ticket only from London to Totnes. If they are checked between Totnes and Plymouth, they’d be PF’d all the way from London to Plymouth?

I suppose a kind RPI might use their discretion to PF only from Totnes to Plymouth.

 

[John Palmer]

In this hypothetical case

"the station at which the train last made a scheduled call"

turns out to be Weston Milton. FWIW, Anytime Single fare from this station to Worle is currently £2.90.

How can the short faring be discovered other than by the RPI involved seeing the ticket from Taunton to Bridgwater? Can't see how it avails the passenger to say "Bang to rights, Guv; got no ticket. But I'm not telling you where I got on."

 

[Watershed]

Related to this, what are the rules regarding buying an overdistance excess? can you buy it on board provided you buy it before your ticket's validity ends? or would you have to buy one before boarding?

There's no entitlement to buy an overdistance excess at all - regardless of whether onboard or before you travel.

You can of course ask staff if they'll sell you one, and if you do so before your ticket's validity ends, I'd imagine most would oblige. But if they say no - you'd have to buy an m/e-ticket on your phone (if available on your journey) or else leave the train at the last station covered by your ticket.

 

[RPI]

I'm certainly persuaded by your argument, but it does seem a tad unfair that the passenger could be PF'd for a section of their journey for which they did already hold a valid ticket. Essentially, they could end up paying (nearly?) three times the fare for the initial Taunton->Bridgwater leg of their journey.

The situation is totally hypothetical, whopper and I interpreted the rules the same

 

[Mcr Warrior]

The situation is totally hypothetical, whopper and I interpreted the rules the same

Why hypothetical? On the basis that you have indeed interpreted the PF regulations correctly, the passenger will then have paid for a ticket from Taunton to Bridgwater, and, in addition, been PF'd for twice the fare from Taunton (via Bridgwater) to Worle.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is the plan for the £50 not just that it's a flat £50 then you sell the relevant walk up ticket, in the case of a short fare this would clearly be one from the end of the short? If not that is grossly unfair - not everyone with a short fare is doing so to evade.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Oct 2022 ==

In this hypothetical case

"the station at which the train last made a scheduled call"

turns out to be Weston Milton. FWIW, Anytime Single fare from this station to Worle is currently £2.90.

How can the short faring be discovered other than by the RPI involved seeing the ticket from Taunton to Bridgwater? Can't see how it avails the passenger to say "Bang to rights, Guv; got no ticket. But I'm not telling you where I got on."

Presumably if a passenger did that you'd forget the PF and move to prosecution.

 

[RPI]

Is the plan for the £50 not just that it's a flat £50 then you sell the relevant walk up ticket, in the case of a short fare this would clearly be one from the end of the short? If not that is grossly unfair - not everyone with a short fare is doing so to evade.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Oct 2022 ==



Presumably if a passenger did that you'd forget the PF and move to prosecution.

From the update we had the other day it looks set to be £100 plus the full Anytime fare, with the £100 reduced to £50 if paid within 21 days. Though this has yet to be confirmed

 

[furlong]

Say passenger is travelling from London to Plymouth with a ticket only from London to Totnes. If they are checked between Totnes and Plymouth, they’d be PF’d all the way from London to Plymouth?
I suppose a kind RPI might use their discretion to PF only from Totnes to Plymouth.

The RPI has no such discretion. Your 'kind RPI' would be providing the journey free of charge if there was an appeal. There is, though, an argument that the original ticket should be considered unused and refundable subject to its normal refund terms where a PF replaces it.

 

[swt_passenger]

From the update we had the other day it looks set to be £100 plus the full Anytime fare, with the £100 reduced to £50 if paid within 21 days. Though this has yet to be confirmed

The DfT announcement back in July, following the consultation, was that it is to be the “applicable single fare” plus the penalty.
The previous discussion was here:

Penalty Fares Consultation outcome published - Regulations now laid to take effect 2023

As penalty fares are relevant to this section Department for Transport has published outcome £100 penalty fare (reduced to £50 if paid within 21 days) This was already decided last year, but timeline has now been added, which is as soon as possible (by a statutory instrument) The Department...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[RPI]

The RPI has no such discretion. Your 'kind RPI' would be providing the journey free of charge if there was an appeal. There is, though, an argument that the original ticket should be considered unused and refundable subject to its normal refund terms where a PF replaces it.

This scenario is impossible as there is a £160 cap on GWR PF's

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Oct 2022 ==

The DfT announcement back in July, following the consultation, was that it is to be the “applicable single fare” plus the penalty.
The previous discussion was here:

Penalty Fares Consultation outcome published - Regulations now laid to take effect 2023

As penalty fares are relevant to this section Department for Transport has published outcome £100 penalty fare (reduced to £50 if paid within 21 days) This was already decided last year, but timeline has now been added, which is as soon as possible (by a statutory instrument) The Department...

www.railforums.co.uk

Just saying what was briefed to us recently

 

[swt_passenger]

Just saying what was briefed to us recently

I suppose there’s plenty of flows where there isn’t an Offpeak single anyway?

 

[jumble]

Unfortunately that's how the rules stand; I suppose it's intended to act as a disincentive to short-faring in this manner.

What happens if said passenger got off the train in Bridgewater and then jumped straight back on?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Oct 2022 ==

The RPI has no such discretion. Your 'kind RPI' would be providing the journey free of charge if there was an appeal. There is, though, an argument that the original ticket should be considered unused and refundable subject to its normal refund terms where a PF replaces it.

Can you advise who mandates that the RPI has no discretion.

 

[miklcct]

13.4 If you travel beyond the destination shown on the Ticket, you will be treated as having
joined the train without a valid Ticket for the additional part of your journey. Condition
9 sets out what may happen if you travel without a valid Ticket.

In such case the customer will be presumed to have joined the train for the additional part of your journey, therefore the Penalty Fare should be issued from the beginning of the additional part, i.e. the part not covered by the destination.

 

[danielcanning]

The RPI has no such discretion. Your 'kind RPI' would be providing the journey free of charge if there was an appeal. There is, though, an argument that the original ticket should be considered unused and refundable subject to its normal refund terms where a PF replaces it.

Frankly if I was penalty fared for the whole of my journey even though I held a ticket valid for most of it there is no chance the RPI would be getting my name and address….

 

[Watershed]

Can you advise who mandates that the RPI has no discretion.

The Regulations. They state that a Penalty Fare must be issued (and calculated) from the station where the passenger boarded, unless the member of staff doesn't know where this is, in which case it should be from the last station the train stopped at.

What happens if said passenger got off the train in Bridgewater and then jumped straight back on?

To the letter of the law, they would have boarded at Bridgwater (no e! ). Whether that would apply in practice is another matter!

In such case the customer will be presumed to have joined the train for the additional part of your journey, therefore the Penalty Fare should be issued from the beginning of the additional part, i.e. the part not covered by the destination.

That is not what the Penalty Fares Regulations say.

 

[Haywain]

Frankly if I was penalty fared for the whole of my journey even though I held a ticket valid for most of it there is no chance the RPI would be getting my name and address….

As has been pointed out upthread, in this case it makes no difference to the amount the PF would be issued for. And by failing to give your name and address you would then be committing an offence.

 

[furlong]

In such case the customer will be presumed to have joined the train for the additional part of your journey, therefore the Penalty Fare should be issued from the beginning of the additional part, i.e. the part not covered by the destination.

I think you're reading too much into that. It doesn't say you'll be treated as if you joined the train somewhere other than where you actually did. It merely states the obvious, that after the point where your ticket expires, the stuff that applies to people joining without a valid ticket also then applies to you - but it doesn't apply to you until you've passed that point.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Oct 2022 ==

What happens if said passenger got off the train in Bridgewater and then jumped straight back on?

I've not noticed any relevant case law, so your guess is as good as mine!

a) I reckon you can board a train more than once! I think that would give the RPI discretion to choose either of the boarding points for the purpose of the PF.

or

b) Boarding is for the purpose of making a particular journey on a specific train and getting off and back on anywhere has no impact on the journey being made, so it's only the first place where someone boarded that counts within the context.