Where next to four track?

[Mag_seven]

Now that Filton has been four tracked, where do you think the next four tracking project should be? An obvious candidate would be the Welwyn bottleneck but where else? I often think that Shenfield - Colchester would benefit from four tracking, but is there anywhere else?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

For a start...

Birmingham New Street - Coventry
Birmingham New Street - Wolverhampton
Birmingham New Street - Kings Norton
Barnes-Twickenham
Brixton-Beckenham Junction
Crewe-Warrington-Preston-Lancaster (to allow for decent commuter services alongside the long distance trains, although mainly worth doing in conjunction with a few new stations)
Orpington-Sevenoaks
Slade Green-Dartford (to allow all trains on the three London-Dartford lines to actually run to Dartford)
Three Bridges-Brighton
Salford Crescent-Bolton
Hunts Cross-Warrington Central
Basingstoke-Southampton
Edinburgh-Inverkeithing

Really, almost anywhere that has reasonably frequent slow and fast trains sharing a double-track line, especially where the line could benefit from frequency increases.

 

[Captain Bigwig]

I remember seeing something about four tracking Didcot to Oxford a few years ago. Does anyone know if there were ever any serious plans for this?

 

[Esker-pades]

A good chunk of the Chiltern Main Line, at least as far as High Wycombe.

 

[gazthomas]

Welwyn to Wooler Green

 

[adrock1976]

Edinburgh Waverley - Drem
Finnieston Junction - Jordanhill
The vicinity of Eastfield Depot - Greenville Junction (perhaps as part of a Glasgow Crossrail tunnel project)
Rutherglen Junction - Motherwell

If the Union Canal was not in the way, I would also have Polmont - Linlithgow with a grade separated junction at Polmont.

 

[Ploughman]

Transpennine.

 

[Alfonso]

A good chunk of the Chiltern Main Line, at least as far as High Wycombe.

I can't believe it's not HS2?

 

[gazthomas]

I can't believe it's not HS2?

2 would be a good start

 

[Esker-pades]

I can't believe it's not HS2?

No, that's the WCML. Chiltern will still have to combine express services to Oxford, Banbury and Leamington whilst increasing capacity at the stations closer to London.

 

[Ken H]

For a start...

Birmingham New Street - Coventry
Birmingham New Street - Wolverhampton
Birmingham New Street - Kings Norton
Barnes-Twickenham
Brixton-Beckenham Junction
Crewe-Warrington-Preston-Lancaster (to allow for decent commuter services alongside the long distance trains, although mainly worth doing in conjunction with a few new stations)
Orpington-Sevenoaks
Slade Green-Dartford (to allow all trains on the three London-Dartford lines to actually run to Dartford)
Three Bridges-Brighton
Salford Crescent-Bolton
Hunts Cross-Warrington Central
Basingstoke-Southampton
Edinburgh-Inverkeithing

Really, almost anywhere that has reasonably frequent slow and fast trains sharing a double-track line, especially where the line could benefit from frequency increases.

Brum - Cov only needs 1 station between NS and International making 4 track IMHO
I would reinstate the 'towards Birmingham' goods line through Adderley park and put the platforms on that, so fast trains can overtake while the stopper stops. It used to be electrified so should not be hard. some heavy civils to cut the platforms out of the cutting required.
The other way, put in a connection just to the west of Stetchford Station to allow up stoppers to use the other side of the down platform.

Both could be done quite easily and cheaply.

A bit of 4 track between Hampden in Arden and Berkswell should put in a bit more capacity between Intl and Cov.

 

[Aictos]

Welwyn to Wooler Green

Going to be a tad difficult with Digswell Viaduct there and one that will certainly have the NIMBY's out in force.

Brum - Cov only needs 1 station between NS and International making 4 track IMHO
I would reinstate the 'towards Birmingham' goods line through Adderley park and put the platforms on that, so fast trains can overtake while the stopper stops. It used to be electrified so should not be hard. some heavy civils to cut the platforms out of the cutting required.
The other way, put in a connection just to the west of Stetchford Station to allow up stoppers to use the other side of the down platform.

Both could be done quite easily and cheaply.

A bit of 4 track between Hampden in Arden and Berkswell should put in a bit more capacity between Intl and Cov.

Why stop there, why not 4 track from Rugby to Birmingham with the stoppers using the reinstated slow lines even if it means heavy civils having to be used.

Also why not 4 track the Northampton loop especially between Mill Lane Junction and Daventry North Junction which although would certainly mean Long Buckby being replaced by a replacement station there, would certainly make pathing services a damn sight easier especially when you have a mix of LNWR services, Freight services and the odd diverted VT as the existing track could be labelled the Up and Down Northampton Fasts and the new track be labelled the Up and Down Northampton Slows.

Also how about 4 tracking Stoke Junction to Lovershall Jn which would benefit not only freight services but LNER, Grand Central, Hull Trains etc.

 

[306024]

Shenfield - Colchester indeed, but you’ve used all the budget for the next 50 years.

 

[Ken H]

Going to be a tad difficult with Digswell Viaduct there and one that will certainly have the NIMBY's out in force.



Why stop there, why not 4 track from Rugby to Birmingham with the stoppers using the reinstated slow lines even if it means heavy civils having to be used.

Also why not 4 track the Northampton loop especially between Mill Lane Junction and Daventry North Junction which although would certainly mean Long Buckby being replaced by a replacement station there, would certainly make pathing services a damn sight easier especially when you have a mix of LNWR services, Freight services and the odd diverted VT as the existing track could be labelled the Up and Down Northampton Fasts and the new track be labelled the Up and Down Northampton Slows.

Also how about 4 tracking Stoke Junction to Lovershall Jn which would benefit not only freight services but LNER, Grand Central, Hull Trains etc.

I think putting in a grade separated junction at hanslope/roade to allow trains from the down fast to get to Northampton would be better. I wpuld probably also put in an up Northampton-up fast flyover too.

 

[Starmill]

No, that's the WCML. Chiltern will still have to combine express services to Oxford, Banbury and Leamington whilst increasing capacity at the stations closer to London.

It will be very interesting to see how Chiltern Mainline Birmingham services go on after HS2. The Chiltern fast Oxford seems to hold its own, even better than the fast Birmingham does (this now calls at High Wycombe), mainly on London to Bicester Village and Oxford Parkway passengers - there seems to have been relatively limited poaching from GWR of Oxford to London passengers.

 

[brad465]

Have any cost-benefit studies been carried out on Welwyn Area? The NIMBYs around Heathrow seem to have lost (for now at least), and the damage from pollution in noise, air and scenery must be far greater than a Digswell upgrade, so the question is how beneficial a 4-track upgrade would be? I think there is a strong case, but if not at a minimum the Hertford Loop line should be upgraded to maybe take a portion of services off the ECML bottleneck in question

 

[Aictos]

Have any cost-benefit studies been carried out on Welwyn Area? The NIMBYs around Heathrow seem to have lost (for now at least), and the damage from pollution in noise, air and scenery must be far greater than a Digswell upgrade, so the question is how beneficial a 4-track upgrade would be? I think there is a strong case, but if not at a minimum the Hertford Loop line should be upgraded to maybe take a portion of services off the ECML bottleneck in question

At Digswell not only do you need to reconstruct Welwyn North but you need to also bore new tunnels north of the the station and also extend the viaduct on both sides by building up then across to provide the extra two new lines which is the only way it would be accepted.

As to the Hertford Loop, the only sections where you could have 4 track running is Langley Junction to Watton at Stone then just after the station to just before Molewood tunnel then to Bayford after which there is no point because the route has stations quite close together.

The places where the Hertford Loop ought to be four tracked is Hertford North but that involves reconstructing the road bridge immediately to the north of the station, extending the track in the bay platform to join the Down Hertford and installing infrastructure to use the rear face of what is Platform 1 and joining that to the Up Hertford.

If you're going to do all that, you might as well extend/straighten all 4 platforms to 8 cars and ensure that all platforms can be reached from both Up and Down Hertford as well as provide step free access to the Up side platforms which needs doing.

You also have Gordon Hill which has 4 platform faces, the former Platform 4 still has the overheads in place so hopefully shouldn't mean too much work to bring the platform back into use apart from the obvious track needed.

What they ought to do at Gordon Hill again is ensure the platforms are 8 car long by extending them at then north end and convert the bays into though platforms so means you have both Gordon Hill and Hertford North as passing points which is far more better then 4 tracking the entire line.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

A good chunk of the Chiltern Main Line, at least as far as High Wycombe.

It would be nigh on impossible. The tunnels out of Marylebone are only wide enough for two tracks and once you reach the stretch from Finchley Road to Neasden Junction it's essentially a six track railway anyway, it's just that four of those tracks are London Underground's and given how much of it is all up on viaducts then the money you'd use to widen it all to make room for extra tracks would be better spent on upgrading the existing line (electrification, resignalling, maybe upping the line speed over the viaducts). It's a curse and a blessing, the lack of space to expand into is made up for the fact that all the places you'd expect to have a station out of Marylebone as far as zone 4 are covered by the Jubilee and Metropolitan lines.

If you do want to throw down more track then going with four aspect signalling all the way to Wycombe and reintroducing some more passing loops in places like Wembley, Denham and Beaconsfield would definitely help the Oxford and Birmingham express services.

 

[Spartacus]

Attercliffe - Swinton, Sheffield - Dore and Huddersfield - Thornhill LNW Jn, a few nice easy wins in serious bottlenecks, with minimal structural work required. Sheffield to Dore would enable a station to be built between Dore and Sheffield (Heeley), thus helping reduce some serious congestion there: even a third line operating as an up and down slow would be very useful, or just putting in as much as possible without replacing bridges

 

[Ianno87]

Where I would predict stands a chance of having new 4 tracking in the next 30 or so years:

-Coppermill Junction to Broxbourne (if Crossrail 2 gets some movement)

That's it.


Where I personally think there might be a half decent case for 4 tracking:

-More 4 tracking between Basingstoke and Winchester (i.e. making Wallers Ash loops longer)
-Partial 4 tracking between Birmingham and Coventry (even with HS2)
-Didcot to Oxford
-Maybe Wigan to Preston

 

[B&I]

Not sure full 4 tracking is necessary, but some additional track between St Helens and Wigan, somewhere along the Chat Moss route (perhaps near Newton-le-Willows), along the CLC, and between Piccadilly and Guide Bridge would be very useful

 

[Esker-pades]

It would be nigh on impossible. The tunnels out of Marylebone are only wide enough for two tracks and once you reach the stretch from Finchley Road to Neasden Junction it's essentially a six track railway anyway, it's just that four of those tracks are London Underground's and given how much of it is all up on viaducts then the money you'd use to widen it all to make room for extra tracks would be better spent on upgrading the existing line (electrification, resignalling, maybe upping the line speed over the viaducts). It's a curse and a blessing, the lack of space to expand into is made up for the fact that all the places you'd expect to have a station out of Marylebone as far as zone 4 are covered by the Jubilee and Metropolitan lines.

If you do want to throw down more track then going with four aspect signalling all the way to Wycombe and reintroducing some more passing loops in places like Wembley, Denham and Beaconsfield would definitely help the Oxford and Birmingham express services.

I agree with everything you say. I was posting on the premise of this being a speculative idea. Reality comes back rather hard.

I would add quadruple track between the Ruislips and passing loops for both lines at Princes Risborough.

 

[Ginaro]

Edinburgh-Inverkeithing

Is this is a fantasy thread or is it supposed to contain sensible suggestions?

 

[Dren Ahmeti]

People are talking about Didcot - Oxford but what about Didcot - Swindon?!

 

[coppercapped]

People are talking about Didcot - Oxford but what about Didcot - Swindon?!

All the passenger trains which run between Didcot and Swindon have originated from Paddington together with some freights which come through Acton Yard. Didcot - Oxford not only carries the services to and from Paddington but also the half-hourly Cross-Countries via Reading, the (approximately) hourly container trains to and from Southampton and the car trains serving BMW at Cowley. The coal trains to Didcot Power Station which used to come via Swindon are long gone so arguably there is spare capacity on the Didcot - Swindon - Wootton Bassett stretch.

In my opinion I can see a stronger argument for quadrupling Didcot to Oxford than to Swindon, but in the first instance a grade separated junction is badly needed at Didcot East to get from the Mains to the Didcot Avoiding Line. This would avoid the sometimes horrendous delays caused by conflicting traffic and would also mean that the Cross Country trains could run at 125mph on the Mains and keep out of the way of the stopping and freight trains on the Reliefs.

Quadrupling to Swindon would make it easier to re-introduce a local service to Swindon as stops at Wantage Road for Grove (the housing development near Wantage) and Wantage itself and possibly also at Uffington and Shrivenham would be easier to timetable without getting in the way of the fast Bristol, South Wales and Cheltenham trains. There is a case to be made for a semi-fast service from Bristol to Oxford (and possibly further on the Bletchley - Bedford - Cambridge route) which would call at re-opened stations at Corsham and Wootton Bassett - but the pathing on the two track sections is difficult.

 

[Aictos]

Just wondering but when they get around to 4 tracking the West Anglia via Tottenham Hale, will this allow MORE Greater Anglia services from Cambridge, Hertford and Bishops Stortford or even allow for the introduction of a fast service to rival the GTR service?

Also does this mean there are any plans to close the countless level crossings on this route at all?

 

[geoffk]

Huntingdon to Peterborough (covered in another thread)
Sheffield - Meadowhall, yes I know a lot of demolition required, but possible through Brightside.
Heaton Lodge - Ravensthorpe

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Is this is a fantasy thread or is it supposed to contain sensible suggestions?

I interpreted the thread as a request for suggestions for places where 4-tracking would be very useful, because the lack of 4-tracks is currently either seriously impacting reliability or extending journey times of fast trains or constraining frequencies to below what potential demand could probably support. Or if it's putting serious restrictions on the timetable. I'm pretty sure Edinburgh-Inverkeithing satisfies several of those criteria. I wasn't particularly thinking of how much it would cost to 4-track, or whether the difficulties would be too great to be worth while at the present time.

But I'm sure practical discussion of the relative difficulties of 4-tracking some of the suggestions made would make for an interesting discussion.

 

[Aictos]

Huntingdon to Peterborough (covered in another thread)

Should be possible from Huntingdon to Holme and then Yaxley to Peterborough itself, across Stilton Fen itself would require a lot of work.

As to Cambridge to Shepreth Junction, the sooner they get on with this the sooner the capacity is there to improve the service ie you can separate GA and GTR services as each would be using their designated tracks as one pair of tracks would be for West Anglia bound services and the other pair will be for Great Northern bound services.

 

[The Planner]

Just how many trains are people expecting on the Coventry corridor to 4 track it!? The line will be a damn sight easier to plan once Hs2 opens. There have never been any plans to 4 track the lot, the closest has always been Stechford to Beechwood tunnel.