Where might the new Hitachi trains be going?

[anthony263]

I think based on how busy the trains look when coming through Newcastle (in both directions), they could quite easily fill 2 x 5 car joined together and take more revenue off LNER.

There was talk hull trains wanted an extra 5 carriage class 802 to run more 10 carriage trains us they wanted to extend all the 803s to 6 carriages.

 

[XCTurbostar]

14x 5-car units. Will be a mix of 802s/805s, 803s/807s and a new battery class.


That’s not the case at all. There’s two different specifications out for such units and both Siemens and Alstom are already adapting their product lines to meet it.

Not sure where you got 805s and 807s from, more likely to be 802/4 and 803/0 or 803/1s. Remember, the 80x class is categorised by the physical differences rather than unit lengths.

 

[Royston Vasey]

14x5 car Class 80x for their existing and new OA operations, with options for another 13 if future OA applications are approved.

From First Group's press release (no link from FG site, but available from market newswire sources):-

It being open access explains why there was no government tender process!

 

[Aaron_TTL]

Whats the logic in ordering separate new units for Lumo when paths are tight and you need more drivers, surely carriages to double up their existing fleet would get them more money for a cheaper investment.

 

[JamesT]

Whats the logic in ordering separate new units for Lumo when paths are tight and you need more drivers, surely carriages to double up their existing fleet would get them more money for a cheaper investment.

Flexibility? If you need more seats on a train you just send out a pair of units coupled up, otherwise you can send them out singly as now. Otherwise you'd either have to extend every unit or have more complicated scheduling to put the longer trains on the right services.

 

[ainsworth74]

See existing thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...14-new-trains-with-options-for-13-more.278043

 

[Simon11]

Whats the logic in ordering separate new units for Lumo when paths are tight and you need more drivers, surely carriages to double up their existing fleet would get them more money for a cheaper investment.

Also impacts on maintenance too. Rather than take a whole set of 10 carriages out for maintenance, they only need to take out 5 carriages meaning they need fewer spares.

 

[LYuen]

Whats the logic in ordering separate new units for Lumo when paths are tight and you need more drivers, surely carriages to double up their existing fleet would get them more money for a cheaper investment.

Modern multi-unit trains can't simply add or remove carriages. Usually each carriage serve some functions for the entire set.
It is easier to couple up an entire set of rolling stock that can run individually, than add a carriage to an existing set.

 

[skyhigh]

Whats the logic in ordering separate new units for Lumo when paths are tight and you need more drivers, surely carriages to double up their existing fleet would get them more money for a cheaper investment.

I think the key words in the post above yours are "not on offer".

If Hitachi won't offer additional coaches, they won't happen.

 

[RollingStock19]

Whats the logic in ordering separate new units for Lumo when paths are tight and you need more drivers, surely carriages to double up their existing fleet would get them more money for a cheaper investment.

To run them as 10 car trains on the existing services.

 

[John R]

So any guesses how the order will be distributed?

I’d suggest at least 5 for Carmarthen. 3 to provide the basic diagrams of 5 return services, one spare and one to double up on peak workings.

6 for Edinburgh, to cover both doubling up the existing diagrams, and to cover the need for at least one more diagram if Glasgow becomes an extension to most of the workings.

That leaves 3 for Hull Trains.

 

[HST43257]

So any guesses how the order will be distributed?

I’d suggest at least 5 for Carmarthen. 3 to provide the basic diagrams of 5 return services, one spare and one to double up on peak workings.

6 for Edinburgh, to cover both doubling up the existing diagrams, and to cover the need for at least one more diagram if Glasgow becomes an extension to most of the workings.

That leaves 3 for Hull Trains.

So re the option for extra units, I guess that is Rochdale, Stirling and Paignton dependent?

 

[DanNCL]

Not sure where you got 805s and 807s from, more likely to be 802/4 and 803/0 or 803/1s. Remember, the 80x class is categorised by the physical differences rather than unit lengths.

Well aware of that. The 802s have been superseded by the 805s, it’s likely the bi-modes will be 805s. There is no difference between the 803s and 807s other than the length and interior so it’s presumably whichever class number they feel like using.

 

[John R]

So re the option for extra units, I guess that is Rochdale, Stirling and Paignton dependent?

Stirling is already approved and not part of this order apparently.

Rochdale, Paignton and Sheffield are the three currently under consideration by the ORR and the options would cover these if approved.

 

[HST43257]

Stirling is already approved and not part of this order apparently.

Rochdale, Paignton and Sheffield are the three currently under consideration by the ORR and the options would cover these if approved.

I was thinking with Stirling in relation to replacing the currently thought 221s

 

[John R]

I was thinking with Stirling in relation to replacing the currently thought 221s

The press statement is very clear and specifies which routes both the firm order and options are to cover, and Stirling is conspicuous by its absence in either.

As it is a financial press statement to the markets, I think we should assume that it clearly and accurately sets out the intentions of the purchase.

 

[AJDesiro]

Well aware of that. The 802s have been superseded by the 805s, it’s likely the bi-modes will be 805s. There is no difference between the 803s and 807s other than the length and interior so it’s presumably whichever class number they feel like using.

This is pedantic, but 803s have batteries to provide hotel power (a bit like how the 801s have a donkey diesel engine), while 807s do not have either.

 

[louis97]

The press statement is very clear and specifies which routes both the firm order and options are to cover, and Stirling is conspicuous by its absence in either.

As it is a financial press statement to the markets, I think we should assume that it clearly and accurately sets out the intentions of the purchase.

First Group said "The Lease Agreement will deliver 14 new trains, which will not only give the Group a homogenous fleet across its open access operations...", this suggests the order is for all current operations with Access Rights. So the 14 sets will be split between the current operations at Lumo and Hull Trains, plus the new operations with access rights of Stirling and Carmarthen. The routes without access rights are mentioned under the option for 13 more sets.

First Group might not be mentioning Stirling as they are planning to start the service initially without these new trains.

(https://www.londonstockexchange.com...-drive-first-rail-open-access-growth/16800448)

 

[D365]

This is pedantic, but 803s have batteries to provide hotel power (a bit like how the 801s have a donkey diesel engine), while 807s do not have either.

I’m not sure what you mean, the Class 807s will definitely have auxiliary batteries.

 

[YorksLad12]

Not sure where you got 805s and 807s from, more likely to be 802/4 and 803/0 or 803/1s. Remember, the 80x class is categorised by the physical differences rather than unit lengths.

Except that the 805s are so numbered because they have five cars, and the 807s because they have seven. Excepting the 805s, even numbers are diesel-electric bi-mode, odd numbers are all-electric.

Well aware of that. The 802s have been superseded by the 805s, it’s likely the bi-modes will be 805s. There is no difference between the 803s and 807s other than the length and interior so it’s presumably whichever class number they feel like using.

Oddly, the story I read said that there would be battery electric trains and bi-modes (meaning diesel and electric). In my mind, battery-electric is also bi-mode...