Where is Salford?

[WatcherZero]

I was quite surprised to find both the settlements of Walsden and Todmorden were incorporated into the area that was administered by the Hundred of Salford.

The 1832 map is the most clear version ive seen.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2e/Lancashire_Administrative_Map_1832.png

A time when there was just six boroughs in Lancashire.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Interestingly Manchester Cathedral is CofE whereas Salford Cathedral is RC - a bit of rivalry there, perhaps.

The ecclesiastical centre of Salford for centuries was Eccles parish church, which is at least as old as Manchester parish chuch (now the Cathedral).
Both of them came under Chester Cathedral (as did most of the north-west and a large chunk of north Yorkshire) until 1836/47.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The ecclesiastical centre of Salford for centuries was Eccles parish church, which is at least as old as Manchester parish chuch (now the Cathedral).
Both of them came under Chester Cathedral (as did most of the north-west and a large chunk of north Yorkshire) until 1836/47.

Manchester Cathedral was a Collegiate Church from 1421 until it became a cathedral in 1847.

 

[HowardGWR]

Manchester Cathedral was a Collegiate Church from 1421 until it became a cathedral in 1847.

Earlier, an OP wrote that Salford was a city due to an RC cathedral (I think that is what he meant). That can't be right can it? I thought cities were only accorded that status on a C of E church becoming a cathedral?

 

[northwichcat]

Earlier, an OP wrote that Salford was a city due to an RC cathedral (I think that is what he meant). That can't be right can it? I thought cities were only accorded that status on a C of E church becoming a cathedral?

Yes.

Shrewsbury - county town with Catholic cathedral is a town.

Hereford - county town with a C of E cathedral is a city.

I've also found the following:

Whitehall, April 22, 1926.
The KING has been pleased, by Letters
Patent under the Great Seal of the United
Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, bearing
date the 21st instant, to ordain that the County
Borough of Portsmouth shall be a City and
shall be called and styled '' The City of
Portsmouth," and that the Mayor, Aldermen
and Burgesses of the said Borough shall be one
body politic and corporate by the name and
style of " The Mayor, Aldermen and Citizens
of the City of Portsmouth.'"

The KING has been pleased, by Letters
Patent under the Great Seal of the United
Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, bearing
date the 21st instant, to ordain that the County
Borough of Salford shall be a City and shall be
called and styled " The City of Salford," and
that the Mayor, Aldermen and Burgesses of the
said Borough shall be one body politic and
corporate by the name and style of " The
Mayor, Aldermen and Citizens of the City of
Salford."

Just checking an Anglican church in Portsmouth was converted to a Cathedral on the same day in 1926. Portsmouth also has a Catholic cathedral.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Earlier, an OP wrote that Salford was a city due to an RC cathedral (I think that is what he meant). That can't be right can it? I thought cities were only accorded that status on a C of E church becoming a cathedral?

There is no formal link between cathedral and city.
The only qualification for a city is a piece of paper from the monarch saying you are one.
In time past it was when they had done some service for the king/queen, and having a cathedral was usually part of it.
But a cathedral has a diocese and you can't have two cathedrals in a diocese. Lichfield is the cathedral for Shrewsbury for instance (and a city, whereas Stafford is not).
Further up the thread I pointed out that Chester was the diocese for most of north-west England including a large part of Yorkshire (and North Wales), so there were no other cathedrals in that area until 1836 or so.
This included Manchester/Liverpool/Blackburn/Ripon whose cathedral status is quite modern.
Preston is another city without a cathedral. Wolverhampton is another.
St Asaph/Llanelwy had a cathedral without being a city until last year.
RC cathedrals don't come into it, as they are not part of the established church.

If you go to the USA, cities are anything bigger than a cross-roads basically.
They don't use the words town and village to distinguish size/status like we do.

 

[HowardGWR]

Sorry to take us a bit OT but it really started with this 'Salford Central' which is anything but. That's cleared up now (thanks) but in searching the area with Google tools, it seemed to me that the wider area, through Pendleton outwards, could possibly do with better connections.

Would a tram running down the A580 /A6 / A576 to the centre (via Salford Central) not serve a very large population of the Salford area? It seems to be very much passed by, as there is just that one station Salford Crescent and then the next stations are well out of town.

 

[telstarbox]

The Busway is intended to provide better connections in Salford (PDF):

http://www.tfgm.com/buspriority/pages/website/pdfs/bus-priority-scheme-map.pdf

 

[pinguini]

The issue with that is some Salford residents see Salford Quays/MediaCity as something for the 'outsiders' and not something for them so won't see it as the centre of their city.

Likewise, those of us who live in Salford Quays don't want anything to do with the rest of Salford

 

[dggar]

The city centre of Salford is Manchester! Just like the twin cities of London and Westminster, Salford and Manchester are merely administrative constructs and do not adequately reflect the reality of Greater Manchester being one huge conurbation. During the 1920's a sort of war broke out between the two cities. Green Salford City Transport buses were prevented from travelling into Deansgate and Piccadilly by City of Manchester policemen blockading Victoria Bridge over the River Irwell. From then until only about thirty years ago, Salford buses terminated at Victoria Bus Station, just inside the boundary. In order to get a number 8 to Bolton, or a number 10 to Warrington, it was necessary to walk out of the City of Manchester across the boundary to Salford.

Before local government reorganisation when Salford absorbed Swinton and Pendlebury, Eccles and Irlam, the nearest Salford came to a city centre was at Pendleton, particularly Broad Street.

Fergus

When I came to Manchester in 1968 I travelled from Piccadilly to Ordsal on a Green Salford Bus (Number 10). Following the same route as the 33 does today.

The 95 and 96 services ran from Whitefield to East Didsbury(Parrs Wood) and were jointly operated by Salford and Manchester corporation Buses. I travelled on that route from piccadilly to Longsight in 1964.

 

[edwin_m]

Despite the bus priority measures buses in Salford seem really slow and also suffer from First's high-fares policy, though Stagecoach has started to move in recently. The train is much faster but less frequent and much of the borough isn't within easy reach of a station.

 

[snail]

When Salford Crescent station opened in 1987 some guards and station announcers started unofficially referring to Salford as "Salford Central" presumably to avoid confusion with the newly opened station to the west.

Salford Crescent effectively replaced Pendleton station, though the latter didn't close until a few years later. It could just as easily have been called Windsor Bridge (the local name) or even Salford University.

 

[Welshman]

Yes.

Shrewsbury - county town with Catholic cathedral is a town.

Hereford - county town with a C of E cathedral is a city.

And yet Leeds, which is a city, has a Roman Catholic Cathedral, not an Anglican one!
[The Anglican diocese is presently that of Ripon and Leeds, but the Anglican Cathedral is in Ripon -although there are plans afoot to change things]

 

[Darren R]

Salford Crescent effectively replaced Pendleton station, though the latter didn't close until a few years later.

Do you mean actually closed or officially closed?

 

[johnnychips]

Off thread, but going back to posts raised earlier, Tameside and Trafford MBCs were created in 1974 and didn't actually relate to a town in their area, compared with Bolton, Oldham, Stockport etc. At least Trafford was an existing place name (as in Old Trafford), but Tameside was completely made up.

The biggest settlement, Ashton, was bigger than Hyde and Stalybridge, but not by that much, so it would have not been acceptable to call it Ashton MBC. Suggestions made were Tamedale, Tameside, East Manchester and Selnec (South East Lancashire North East Cheshire), and the second was chosen.

Since then, as the administrative centre was built there, Ashton has probably become more dominant, yet Stalybridge is still the most important station because of its historic position as a stop for trans-Pennine trains (because of its Stockport connection), but more recently as the junction for trains coming from Victoria and Piccadilly. Threads on this forum catalog its recent remodelling, and councillors in Tameside rail against any suggestions of reduction of its TP service, as they consider it to be the borough's principal station.

 

[northwichcat]

There is no formal link between cathedral and city.
The only qualification for a city is a piece of paper from the monarch saying you are one.
In time past it was when they had done some service for the king/queen, and having a cathedral was usually part of it.
But a cathedral has a diocese and you can't have two cathedrals in a diocese. Lichfield is the cathedral for Shrewsbury for instance (and a city, whereas Stafford is not).

The first cities were given the status by Henry VIII all had a 'C of E cathedral' Although Henry VIII still saw the Cathedrals as Catholic even though the Vatican thought otherwise.

 

[anti-pacer]

The centre of Salford is Chapel Street where the cathedral is. Also the courts are based there.

The shopping centre of Salford is Pendleton, where the horrible chav-filled 60's indoor mall is.

The administrative centre of Salford is Swinton, home to the Civic Centre and Central Library.

Salford is a very mixed city with lots of poverty and lots of affluence. Before moving to Wakefield, I lived for 6 months on Worsley Road in Swinton, but close to the Worsley border. Literally 5 minutes walk from me was Ryan Giggs' house on Chatsworth Road, if anyone knows it.

It's arguably part of Manchester, but especially in the poor areas, there's very much an unwarranted Salford pride!

Strange place really.

 

[cle]

I would hope that Salford Central is rebuilt to some sort of decent level, given Chat Moss platforms and then renamed to 'Spinningfields' or similar to increase patronage.

Especially now the footbridge is open, it could surely to a lot more - including the fastest journeys from Leeds and Liverpool to Spinningfields, Deansgate, Castlefield, arguably the streets up to Albert Square too etc etc...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If a settlement the size of Pontefract can boast no less than three stations that show the name of the settlement in their names, then the city of Salford should retain the existing name of the city in both its two currently named railway stations.

 

[northwichcat]

If a settlement the size of Pontefract can boast no less than three stations that show the name of the settlement in their names, then the city of Salford should retain the existing name of the city in both its two currently named railway stations.

One of the stations in Pontefract gets a level of service similar to Ardwick and I don't think having 3 stations benefits the people in the local area more than having 1.

 

[anti-pacer]

Altrincham also has one of the highest retail vacancy rates (highest rate nationwide in 2010) and lowest independent retailers in the country despite its affluent population who have a high proportion of managerial or professional level workers, over 50% compared to a national average of 25.9%.

I wonder why Altrincham's retail core has suffered, given the amount of money in the area.

 

[northwichcat]

I wonder why Altrincham's retail core has suffered, given the amount of money in the area.

You could say the same about Knutsford but if you saw Knutsford in the 1990s it was full of empty shops, you would have thought the 1980s economic downturn had not ended. Big retailers like Tesco moved out due to there being no room to expand in their existing premises and there being difficulty in getting planning permission for new building on other sites. What's happened in Knutsford is a lot of empty adjacent shops have become one larger shop e.g. Waitrose took over a unit Blockbuster video vacated, next to a unit Travelbag vacated and merged them in to one shop. Also the number of cafes, restaurants and offices have increased as empty shops have been converted to other uses.

Altrincham really has too many retail units for the size of the town. Like nearby Northwich a number of the retailers based in the town collapsed e.g. Woolworths, Music Zone and Stationery Box. However, unlike Northwich Altrincham has attracted big names in to taking on town centre shops in the last few years - Debenhams, Iceland and Wilkinsons have all moved in to Altrincham.

Currently if you look at Altrincham town centre shops in one half, which has seen some redevelopment, practically every unit is occupied and the other half, which hasn't seen redevelopment sees a number of empty shops.

Trafford council have over the past few years reduced the parking charges in the town centre significantly which is presumably in the hope to make driving a bit further to the Trafford Centre less attractive.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

One of the stations in Pontefract gets a level of service similar to Ardwick and I don't think having 3 stations benefits the people in the local area more than having 1.

Obviously so, but my posting was not about the benefits of these for the rail users, but was actually to state that the name of the settlement was shown in the three railway stations of Pontefract.

 

[HowardGWR]

The Busway is intended to provide better connections in Salford (PDF):

http://www.tfgm.com/buspriority/pages/website/pdfs/bus-priority-scheme-map.pdf

Thanks -well I never! When I made my suggestion I had no idea about this scheme but it just seemed a huge gap in the middle of the two diverging railways.

I just wonder when it will become a tram or are there specific reasons why it could not be?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

You could say the same about Knutsford but if you saw Knutsford in the 1990s it was full of empty shops, you would have thought the 1980s economic downturn had not ended. Big retailers like Tesco moved out due to there being no room to expand in their existing premises and there being difficulty in getting planning permission for new building on other sites. What's happened in Knutsford is a lot of empty adjacent shops have become one larger shop e.g. Waitrose took over a unit Blockbuster video vacated, next to a unit Travelbag vacated and merged them in to one shop. Also the number of cafes, restaurants and offices have increased as empty shops have been converted to other uses.

I would put forward shopping in our adjoining area of Wilmslow which is not too far removed from either Altrincham or Knutsford as still being an experience to enjoy. We have the iconic Hoopers department store with many in-house high quality establishments incorporated. There are retail outlets of high quality brand names and travel-wise, the company trading as Destinology has recently opened a large outlet on Alderley Road. Two examples of estate agencies that cater for the top-end of properties are Savills and Jackson-Stopps and Staff have had a presence there for many years.

 

[telstarbox]

Thanks -well I never! When I made my suggestion I had no idea about this scheme but it just seemed a huge gap in the middle of the two diverging railways.

I just wonder when it will become a tram or are there specific reasons why it could not be?

In theory it could be converted to a tramway in the future, although only the section from Leigh bus station to Ellenbrook is busway - the rest uses bus lanes, priority at signals, etc on existing roads.

 

[cle]

Obviously so, but my posting was not about the benefits of these for the rail users, but was actually to state that the name of the settlement was shown in the three railway stations of Pontefract.

Salford Crescent is enough surely - and even then could be renamed to Salford University.

Salford Central is misleading to say the least; it's barely the centre of Salford but rather across the river from Central Manchester, also 'Central Salford' doesn't exist as a specific destination or locale, and finally because 'Central' in railway terms often implies some sort of hub or focus point on the network and it is not that.

It's best suited as a Spinningfields, Deansgate and NW Manchester CBD station on the Manchester almost-circle line post-Ordsall. And would be a station which just so happens to be technically in Salford. Then usage would increase signficantly.

The Salford tag is confusing at best and downright offputting to many, I'd imagine.

 

[radamfi]

Do you mean actually closed or officially closed?

Pendleton was closed originally because of an arson attack and then it was deemed not to be worth repairing and Salford Crescent was near enough. I guess the latter means it has now 'officially' closed. Would it have closed had the arson attack not happened?

 

[Tetchytyke]

It was over four years between the temporary closure and the permanent closure though.

Not quite on the same level as Newhaven Harbour, but not far short!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Let us not forget that Pendleton had two railway stations. Pendleton Bridge was on the Bolton line and Pendleton Broad Street was on the Atherton line.