Where do I find the standing & seating capacities of different units?

[CiaranHaines]

I am working on something with the new Gemini consist data that is being published on the RDM - it gives the class and formation of trains that are running including the seating capacity. I have not yet seen standing capacity on any legs, but have just started looking at this. I want to be able to give the seating and standing capacity of different train unit classes. Is there any collected source for this? I see that this information appears to be pretty present on Wikipedia but that seems like along way round.

 

[hexagon789]

I am working on something with the new Gemini consist data that is being published on the RDM - it gives the class and formation of trains that are running including the seating capacity. I have not yet seen standing capacity on any legs, but have just started looking at this. I want to be able to give the seating and standing capacity of different train unit classes. Is there any collected source for this? I see that this information appears to be pretty present on Wikipedia but that seems like along way round.

Platform 5 offers seating capacities for multiple units and coaching stock in their pocket books and combined volume.

They are usually quite accurate with the data these days but obviously usual caveats with fleet refurbishments and other alterations would apply, as the books are only updated once a year.

There isn't really official standing capacities per se. Some trains built for more metro/suburban duties may be designed with a approximate amount of standees to seating capacity but there's no precise limit/figure. For other trains, it's simply in terms of how many the floor space will hold really.

 

[Tester]

I am working on something with the new Gemini consist data that is being published on the RDM - it gives the class and formation of trains that are running including the seating capacity. I have not yet seen standing capacity on any legs, but have just started looking at this. I want to be able to give the seating and standing capacity of different train unit classes. Is there any collected source for this? I see that this information appears to be pretty present on Wikipedia but that seems like along way round.

Welcome to the forum.

Others more knowledgable will be along, but I don't believe that trains have formal standing capacities.

Of course one can do all sorts of calculations based on floor area etc., but I don't think that the permitted numbers of standing passengers, as seen on signs on buses, are a thing with trains. My understanding is that trains are deemed safe to carry as many passengers as can physically board.

For practical reasons, it would be problematic to be any other way, just as with train seatbelts.

 

[CiaranHaines]

Hmmm. I know 'crowding' is a contentious issue because the operators can get stick for excessive crowding levels, but I know there are at least a few of the commuter / local types that are explicitly built with standing in mind, and I know that the train times data feed "Darwin pushport" sometimes outputs separate seating AND standing capacities. This new Gemini data is much better quality but seems to be missing standing capacity. perhaps because of what you say? Hmmm.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Wikipedia has this information for most classes, that's where I get it from for seating.

I'm not sure the railway has a concept of maximum permitted standees. Practically it's usually "as many as physically fit on". Pendolinos have a weight limit above which they won't tilt, but it's a weight, not a number of people.

 

[CiaranHaines]

Platform 5 offers seating capacities for multiple units and coaching stock in their pocket books and combined volume.

They are usually quite accurate with the data these days but obviously usual caveats with fleet refurbishments and other alterations would apply, as the books are only updated once a year.

There isn't really official standing capacities per se. Some trains built for more metro/suburban duties may be designed with a approximate amount of standees to seating capacity but there's no precise limit/figure. For other trains, it's simply in terms of how many the floor space will hold really.

Ooh, that could be helpful.

 

[swt_passenger]

Welcome to the forum.

Others more knowledgable will be along, but I don't believe that trains have formal standing capacities.

Of course one can do all sorts of calculations based on floor area etc., but I don't think that the permitted numbers of standing passengers, as seen on signs on buses, are a thing with trains. My understanding is that trains are deemed safe to carry as many passengers as can physically board.

For practical reasons, it would be problematic to be any other way, just as with train seatbelts.

If you go back through DfT franchise ITTs for various TOCs, then they sometimes show a calculated standing figure for the various rolling stock in use. The caveat is that’s probably what the DfT think it should be, based on an assumed fraction of a square metre per person, rather than what the original builder might have designed. I think they’re also calculated on a whole unit basis rather than individual carriages. Going back a few years I remember some conflicts between what DfT thought was ok and what some other authorities considered acceptable. I think this led to a discussion in the forum about some 350s having different standing capacities depending on whether they were in London or the West Midlands.

I‘ve not seen a carriage end data plate showing a standing figure, but that’s not to say it’s never happened.

 

[CiaranHaines]

Thanks for the info folks!

 

[tfw756rider]

I am working on something with the new Gemini consist data that is being published on the RDM - it gives the class and formation of trains that are running including the seating capacity. I have not yet seen standing capacity on any legs, but have just started looking at this. I want to be able to give the seating and standing capacity of different train unit classes. Is there any collected source for this? I see that this information appears to be pretty present on Wikipedia but that seems like along way round.

What are Gemini, the RDM and legs in this context?

 

[Stephen42]

What are Gemini, the RDM and legs in this context?

Gemini is an internal rail system, for many passenger operators it contains allocations of what stock will work what train and mileage stock has done since last overhaul.

RDM is the Rail Data Marketplace, a data catalogue and distribution platform with various data sets. The allocations/consist data is one of the most recent data sets to be published. Most of the data requires processing/interpretation to be useful, the consist data is a Kafka message feed that needs to be parsed, stored and query capabilities added to be of any use.

In this context legs are a part of the scheduled service, a unit might detach/attach part way through the schedule or the train reverses changing vehicle order. These schedules are made up of multiple legs for allocation purposes. The most common case will be a service with a single leg representing the whole service.

 

[tfw756rider]

Gemini is an internal rail system, for many passenger operators it contains allocations of what stock will work what train and mileage stock has done since last overhaul.

RDM is the Rail Data Marketplace, a data catalogue and distribution platform with various data sets. The allocations/consist data is one of the most recent data sets to be published. Most of the data requires processing/interpretation to be useful, the consist data is a Kafka message feed that needs to be parsed, stored and query capabilities added to be of any use.

In this context legs are a part of the scheduled service, a unit might detach/attach part way through the schedule or the train reverses changing vehicle order. These schedules are made up of multiple legs for allocation purposes. The most common case will be a service with a single leg representing the whole service.

Many thanks

 

[diligentdave]

A Class 156 as originally built had a standing figure of 176. It wouldn't be far off now they have had PRM upgrades.

Class 150's are calculated by the "floor space for standing" dimensions. An ATL Class 150/1 DMSA (non-toilet) has 13.37m2 or 15.21m2 depending on variances of seating layouts.

Similarly, an ATL Class 150/2 DMSA is measured at 13.77m2 or 15.21m2, again, depending on seat layouts. The DMSB (toilet) Class 150/1 is measured at 12.45m2 or 15.62m2, a Class 150/2 is 14.85m2 or 15.62m2.

Some of these floor space calculations would of changed a little with the fitment of the PRM toilets and compliant partition spaces. Depending on the average height/build of an average passenger would be how many standing you can have.

A Class 155 has 16.6m2 of floor space for standing on the DMS (non toilet) and 18.8m2 on the DMSL (toilet vehicle), again, with PRM installations this calculation has probably changed, but not by much.

A two car Class 158 (ATL) DMSA (non toilet) floor space is 16.15m2, and the DMSB (toilet vehicle) is 16.76m2.

A lot of this info can be found on the ROSCO (owners) websites, most have technical pamphlets that can be downloaded.

Hope that helps.

 

[Razorblades]

Diligent Dave is correct. Certainly when the Northern franchise bids were being compiled we had to work to an accepted standard of standees -vs- available floor space, and the presence of things standees could hold on to was a crucial part of the internal arrangement, luggage racks, grab handles, rails, seatback knobs etc.

There are presumably standards for crowding because we used to have to adhere to PIXC regulations (passengers in excess of capacity), and crush-laden calculations were used to calculate performance under different loads.

 

[themiller]

On Eurostarseach passenger must have an allocated seat. Other trains have no such restriction. Indeed, I’ve beeen on a single class 153 heading for Sellafield when it stood in for a two car unit and the conductor moved some of the standees into the rear cab so that workers were not left behind - I believe that there was a contract between Northern and Sellafield with severe penalties if they didn’t perform.