Where Did Thameslink Go Wrong?

[MidnightFlyer]

Too ambitious? FCC?

Apparently the old Government wanted to remove First from the Capital Connect franchise.

Can someone please shed some light about what First did wrong? Thank you guys

 

[northwichcat]

Well something must have gone wrong for the previous government to over-estimate predicted passenger numbers when with Northern, TPE, XC, EMT (local/regional) etc. they seriously underestimated.

 

[yorksrob]

Well something must have gone wrong for the previous government to over-estimate predicted passenger numbers when with Northern, TPE, XC, EMT (local/regional) etc. they seriously underestimated.

I was under the impression that the last Government massively under-estimated predicted passenger numbers on Northern and TPE.

 

[thefab444]

Which is exactly what jcollins said?

 

[yorksrob]

Sorry. It's probably me but, I still don't get it.

 

[swt_passenger]

Too ambitious? FCC?

Apparently the old Government wanted to remove First from the Capital Connect franchise.

Can someone please shed some light about what First did wrong? Thank you guys

I don't think that's right.

There were various popular campaigns, including one of those stupid petitions on the Prime Minister's website requesting that the government removed First from the franchise, but I don't remember it ever being a publicly admitted government policy...

The basic error First seem to have made was to just sleepwalk along assuming that the traincrew would always be willing to volunteer for rest day working - when this stopped their lack of recruitment was shown up.

 

[313103]

When i first saw the thread 'Where did Thameslink go wrong' i was thinking of the original Thameslink programme that went to obscure places such as Epsom, Sevonoaks via Bat & Ball, Horsham, Effingham Junction to say the least and then totally retrenched to what Thameslink is now. I am sure Old Timer remembers those days perhaps he might have a greater knowledge of where Thameslink use to go? I hope so.

But as we are talking about First groups running of Thameslink franchise i am sorry i really cant put much input into this as i dont work on or travel on Thameslink that very often. Perhaps it needs someone who works on the company concerned to give us a little insight as to where Thameslink went wrong.

 

[swt_passenger]

Sorry. It's probably me but, I still don't get it.

I don't think you should either.

I think the original question was nothing at all to do with predicted passenger numbers.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

When i first saw the thread 'Where did Thameslink go wrong' i was thinking of the original Thameslink programme that went to obscure places such as Epsom, Sevonoaks via Bat & Ball, Horsham, Effingham Junction to say the least and then totally retrenched to what Thameslink is now. I am sure Old Timer remembers those days perhaps he might have a greater knowledge of where Thameslink use to go? I hope so.

But as we are talking about First groups running of Thameslink franchise i am sorry i really cant put much input into this as i dont work on or travel on Thameslink that very often. Perhaps it needs someone who works on the company concerned to give us a little insight as to where Thameslink went wrong.

Meant all aspects of the TL Programme including the TL 2000 project, and those destinations like Eastbourne, Guildford and Littlehampton

 

[Old Timer]

....I am sure Old Timer remembers those days perhaps he might have a greater knowledge of where Thameslink use to go? I hope so..

Originally it was Bedford to Brighton, and then this was supplemented by a sevice from Luton to Sevenoaks via Bromley.

There have been a number of route changes since then which I am not familiar with.

The major problem Thameslink has always had with regards to performance, is that of the trains having to thread there way through the notoriously congested South London area and Metropolitan Jct to reach the Thameslink route through Blackfriars. The fact that they were Inter-Regional services (and in the case of the Lutons, Class 2s) did not help either as the Southern have always given priority to their own services over the Thameslink ones.

 

[313103]

Meant all aspects of the TL Programme including the TL 2000 project, and those destinations like Eastbourne, Guildford and Littlehampton

Ok, IMHO i think that Thamesliink ran and jumped long before it could walk and this caused the service especially running between Kentish Town and Blackfriars on a two track railway to all those assorted destinations. It should of maybe started much as it is now Bedford to Brighton/Luton to Luton via Sutton and then maybe try and expand to say Eastbourne, Guildford, Littlehampton and even Tonbridge via the Bat and Ball route. It would of been a good idea to have had the current Luton starts to have started at Dunstable.
However with the way the railway has been broken up i think that companies would not want say some of there passengers travelling on a rival companies service and would make as difficult as possible to make it work properly. That is why i think that apart from say Grand Central and WSMR most have fallen by the wayside. One of the best things that never really got going but would have done if more foresight was put was the former Anglia Railways service from East Anglia to Hampshire via the North London Line, but here i have digressed.

I think privatisation hasn't brought in the much needed change that British Rail had to offer. Much of the service provision is still what it was under BR albeit with newer rolling stock and improvements to the timetable.

I travelled to Tonbridge on Saturday and i was surprised to see Thameslink rolling stock parked up at Orpington and Tonbridge and yet they dont serve those stations in service.

 

[thefab444]

When i first saw the thread 'Where did Thameslink go wrong' i was thinking of the original Thameslink programme that went to obscure places such as Epsom, Sevonoaks via Bat & Ball, Horsham, Effingham Junction to say the least and then totally retrenched to what Thameslink is now. I am sure Old Timer remembers those days perhaps he might have a greater knowledge of where Thameslink use to go? I hope so.

As Old Timer says, the original "second service" was Luton - Sevenoaks, this was then changed to Guildford via West Croydon, and then shortly before privatisation to Sutton via Wimbledon/Hackbridge, with the West Croydon - Guildford portion taken over by South West Trains until 2001 when it was combined with the Waterloo - Epsom via Wimbledon services.

FCC serve do Orpington with a handful of services:
0640 Bedford to Orpington
0658 Orpington to St Albans
0728 Orpington to Luton
0747 Orpington to Luton
0847 Orpington to Kentish Town
1609 Kentish Town to Orpington
1734 Orpington to Bedford

 

[Aictos]

Ok, IMHO i think that Thamesliink ran and jumped long before it could walk and this caused the service especially running between Kentish Town and Blackfriars on a two track railway to all those assorted destinations. It should of maybe started much as it is now Bedford to Brighton/Luton to Luton via Sutton and then maybe try and expand to say Eastbourne, Guildford, Littlehampton and even Tonbridge via the Bat and Ball route. It would of been a good idea to have had the current Luton starts to have started at Dunstable.
However with the way the railway has been broken up i think that companies would not want say some of there passengers travelling on a rival companies service and would make as difficult as possible to make it work properly. That is why i think that apart from say Grand Central and WSMR most have fallen by the wayside. One of the best things that never really got going but would have done if more foresight was put was the former Anglia Railways service from East Anglia to Hampshire via the North London Line, but here i have digressed.

I think privatisation hasn't brought in the much needed change that British Rail had to offer. Much of the service provision is still what it was under BR albeit with newer rolling stock and improvements to the timetable.

I travelled to Tonbridge on Saturday and i was surprised to see Thameslink rolling stock parked up at Orpington and Tonbridge and yet they dont serve those stations in service.

Actually Orpington is served by the Thameslink as it's a joint FCC/SouthEastern service.

 

[313103]

FCC serve do Orpington with a handful of services:
0640 Bedford to Orpington
0658 Orpington to St Albans
0728 Orpington to Luton
0747 Orpington to Luton
0847 Orpington to Kentish Town
1609 Kentish Town to Orpington
1734 Orpington to Bedford

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Actually Orpington is served by the Thameslink as it's a joint FCC/SouthEastern service.

Ok Thanks for that Fab 444 and ajax103i did not know this so thanks for clearing this up. I wondered why i saw Thameslink rolling stock.

 

[Oswyntail]

I suspect the original concept was an answer to a problem that did not really exist in terms of traffic flows. From the North, it was meant to ease congestion at St Pancras, and was particularly useful with the service into Moorgate. From the South, it did not really ease any congestion, mainly because of the junctions described earlier. The cross-London service routes seemed to have been chosen as somewhere to lose the trains (except the Gatwick sweetener), rather than flows demanded by passengers. Even today, I would guess that actual cross-river traffic N-S is a very small part of the overall picture, and that most of the traffic S-N doesn't get beyond Farringdon.
IMHO, the most sensible purpose for a cross-London route would be long-distance passenger (and freight, as there originally was) from the rather isolated South East counties to link with the main network, with usable central London interchanges (unlike the Olympia route).
What condemned the FCC reign to being a dead duck, again IMHO, was dropping Moorgate.

 

[thefab444]

Yes the loss of Moorgate was a shame, especially for a 12 coach project that will probably not happen!

 

[swt_passenger]

Meant all aspects of the TL Programme including the TL 2000 project, and those destinations like Eastbourne, Guildford and Littlehampton

What has any of that ^^^ got to do with:

"Apparently the old Government wanted to remove First from the Capital Connect franchise."

That's what I thought you were asking about...

Stuff about services to Eastbourne, Guildford and Littlehampton has been done to death in previous threads...

 

[MidnightFlyer]

What has any of that ^^^ got to do with:

"Apparently the old Government wanted to remove First from the Capital Connect franchise."

That's what I thought you were asking about...

Stuff about services to Eastbourne, Guildford and Littlehampton has been done to death in previous threads...

Sorry, my misunderstanding, talk about whatever you like about TL, the recenter, the better

 

[Aictos]

But Moorgate had to be dropped otherwise Farringdon wouldn't been able to get the 12 car platform extenstions and passengers for Farringdon would be restricted to 8 car trains as the platforms can't be extended northbound because of the incline so the only option was to built across the former Moorgate branch.

In my view, it was the right decision especially as the Met, Circle and H & C all shadow the Thameslink route between Farringdon and Moorgate.

 

[Class377/5]

Too ambitious? FCC?

Apparently the old Government wanted to remove First from the Capital Connect franchise.

Can someone please shed some light about what First did wrong? Thank you guys

Right can I stop you here. At no point did the Government want to remove FCC from the Thameslink franchise. What actually happened is FCC went to the Government and the DfT agreed for FCC to run a reduced service.

While this was going on the passengers stated they wanted FCC removed from the franchise but didn't realise they were asking the same Government to do this as had already agreed to the reduced service.

You guys also forget that FCC's 319's and 377/5's run services out of Victoria in early morning/late evening while working for Southeastern (OK only one 377/5 8 car service from Victoria - Ashford International).

The major problem Thameslink has always had with regards to performance, is that of the trains having to thread there way through the notoriously congested South London area and Metropolitan Jct to reach the Thameslink route through Blackfriars. The fact that they were Inter-Regional services (and in the case of the Lutons, Class 2s) did not help either as the Southern have always given priority to their own services over the Thameslink ones.

Spot on Old Timer. The basic frame of the network meant that capcity was always going to be an issue if they route became popluar which it did. Big time. people seem to forget that FCC interact with three other TOC and one incident at one part of the network cause problems elesewhere as trains do get delayed. A lot of the delays on the Thameslink network aren't actually anything to do with FCC or anything they can change. But people don;t care as they only see what they want to. Tunnel vision.

The Thameslink Programme is the only way to fix alot of the main issues out one for and for.

Remember that when FCC got the franchise 50% of passengers regular experienced issues getting onto the trains nevermind getting a seat. Even with numbers down FCC still experiences crowded trains.

Thameslink is not a case of what went wrong as much as what went right. After all passengers numbers have gone through the roof compared to before it open. I can't remember what the time frame was but from the opening in the 1990 until they planned the Thameslink 2000 project (some five years later) passenger number rose 400%. You can't continue like that without major investment.

FCC franchise was always dealing with the problems and worsen situation in some cases while major work continued.

 

[thefab444]

But Moorgate had to be dropped otherwise Farringdon wouldn't been able to get the 12 car platform extenstions and passengers for Farringdon would be restricted to 8 car trains as the platforms can't be extended northbound because of the incline so the only option was to built across the former Moorgate branch.

But surely the new stock orders for Thameslink are now on hold, so the whole scheme was a bit premature?

 

[Class377/5]

But surely the new stock orders for Thameslink are now on hold, so the whole scheme was a bit premature?

The new orders for the train aren't on hold. The order for the 12 car trains to run Bedford - Brighton are still going ahead. What is in question is the extra trains to run all over the Southern network. But we will know in a few months how badly things will be affected if at all.

 

[Aictos]

Exactly by Dec 2011, more 12 cars will able to call at a lot more stations as the GN programme starts in September 2010 and finishes September 2011.

This means more seats for passengers and hopefully less overcrowding on the major journeys.

 

[yorksrob]

Thameslink is not a case of what went wrong as much as what went right. After all passengers numbers have gone through the roof compared to before it open. I can't remember what the time frame was but from the opening in the 1990 until they planned the Thameslink 2000 project (some five years later) passenger number rose 400%. You can't continue like that without major investment.

That's certainly true - the phrase "victim of it's own success" springs to mind.

 

[A60K]

When i first saw the thread 'Where did Thameslink go wrong' i was thinking of the original Thameslink programme that went to obscure places such as Epsom, Sevonoaks via Bat & Ball, Horsham, Effingham Junction to say the least and then totally retrenched to what Thameslink is now. I am sure Old Timer remembers those days perhaps he might have a greater knowledge of where Thameslink use to go? I hope so.

May 1988 timetable was, IIRC, 6tph off-peak:
2 x Bedford to Brighton
2 x Luton to Sevenoaks via Bat & Ball
2 x Cricklewood to Orpington

Peak service between Farringdon and Blackfriars was very limited, as Moorgate and Holborn Viaduct were used for LMR and SR services respectively, there not being enough 319s to run a full peak service. The 319s were therefore concentrated north of the river in the peak with EPBs running the South Eastern Division services.

 

[Any Permitted]

When i first saw the thread 'Where did Thameslink go wrong' i was thinking of the original Thameslink programme that went to obscure places such as Epsom, Sevonoaks via Bat & Ball, Horsham, Effingham Junction to say the least and then totally retrenched to what Thameslink is now. I am sure Old Timer remembers those days perhaps he might have a greater knowledge of where Thameslink use to go? I hope so.

But as we are talking about First groups running of Thameslink franchise i am sorry i really cant put much input into this as i dont work on or travel on Thameslink that very often. Perhaps it needs someone who works on the company concerned to give us a little insight as to where Thameslink went wrong.

I remember being a child and being excited that I could go from my nan's local station (Bookham) to exotic places like Bedford and Luton. Presumably they used to run services all the way to Guildford.

 

[yorksrob]

May 1988 timetable was, IIRC, 6tph off-peak:
2 x Bedford to Brighton
2 x Luton to Sevenoaks via Bat & Ball
2 x Cricklewood to Orpington

Peak service between Farringdon and Blackfriars was very limited, as Moorgate and Holborn Viaduct were used for LMR and SR services respectively, there not being enough 319s to run a full peak service. The 319s were therefore concentrated north of the river in the peak with EPBs running the South Eastern Division services.

Mmmmmm - lovely EPB's ...........

I'm surprised about the timetable - I thought there was always a Thameslink going out west towards Sutton?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

May 1988 timetable was, IIRC, 6tph off-peak:
2 x Bedford to Brighton
2 x Luton to Sevenoaks via Bat & Ball
2 x Cricklewood to Orpington

Peak service between Farringdon and Blackfriars was very limited, as Moorgate and Holborn Viaduct were used for LMR and SR services respectively, there not being enough 319s to run a full peak service. The 319s were therefore concentrated north of the river in the peak with EPBs running the South Eastern Division services.

2 x Luton to Purley according to my BR May-Oct 88 Timetable

 

[tempests1]

I remember being a child and being excited that I could go from my nan's local station (Bookham) to exotic places like Bedford and Luton. Presumably they used to run services all the way to Guildford.

Southern Trains still run a couple of trains in the Week day Peak's to/from Guildford from Victoria & London Bridge.

 

[A60K]

Mmmmmm - lovely EPB's ...........

I'm surprised about the timetable - I thought there was always a Thameslink going out west towards Sutton?

They weren't in the first timetable, but Sutton/Guildford services were added fairly soon after the route opened - possibly with the May 1989 timetable?