Where did Britain go wrong?

[Sad Sprinter]

We've had numerous threads about where political parties went wrong, but as Britain is in such a state at the moment I thought I would start a general 'where it went wrong' thread.

It seems we have a State that can do nothing else but slowly and quietly to destroy the country.

 

[Intercity110]

i believe that it could be major, thatcher or whoever privatized the everything. (controversial, i know)

 

[birchesgreen]

There isn't one cause, but many and some of these (international pressures) outside of our control. But i think greed is behind many of these causes.

 

[yorksrob]

Fundamentally, we have placed too many of our eggs into the international "free" market basket, and that leaves us overexposed when there is an international shock.

There has also been too much outsourcing, leading to too much wealth draining from the country.

 

[nlogax]

A combination of many factors; short term-ism in government planning, a lack of cohesion across society, a stubborn refusal to address social inequality, lack of infrastructure investment, inherent greed, hangovers from the class system (those two may be related though I'm sure there's more to than that)... actually it's hard to know where to begin with this.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think it is fair to say, though, that a certain referendum in 2016, called to give David Cameron a legacy, was a massive act of self-sabotage. There were other issues both locally and globally, and the EU does have faults, but the whole thing (and the "hard Brexit" that resulted) has caused massive, massive harm.

 

[Simon11]

As humans we only really know and care about what we live and see.

I am sure that if you visited and lived in 95% of other countries, you will also see them making the same view as for Britain for their own country! Most countries are grappling with the same issues (or even more issues) than we are.

While there are a few countries I would happily move to, there are a greater of countries that I wouldn't even want to touch the ground on!

Always worth putting into perspective.

 

[MikeWM]

Probably it is inevitable to a degree - all successful societies and empires decline eventually, to be replaced by others (though with perhaps a 'dark age' inbetween).

Much like old age - you may be able to stave it off for a while, but not forever. Too many factors eventually go wrong.

None of that means we should just quietly accept it - I'm sure there are quite a number of things we could do to avoid declining at quite the dramatic rate we currently seem to be experiencing. There doesn't seem to be any political will to do so, however, from any of the main parties.

 

[nlogax]

I think it is fair to say, though, that a certain referendum in 2016, called to give David Cameron a legacy, was a massive act of self-sabotage

Without wanting to go down the Brexit road (as there's already a thread for that) it feels to me that the referendum and result were merely signifiers and by-products of our ongoing national decline, some of the roots of which stretch back decades.

 

[AlterEgo]

Probably a long term refusal to plan for or future and our perception of economic health being too tied to house values.

Add into this a complete lack of interest in closing the equality gap and you’ve got a country in decline. We’re living at the end of one epoch in the West and will probably transition to another shortly after my lifetime.

 

[GS250]

I think you can apply the word 'Britain' to virtually every other Western country. I've said it before but the West is declining and the East is in the ascendancy.

However I agree with Yorksrob that too much emphasis on outsourcing has particularly hurt Britain. As has the lack of appreciation of those blue collar roles that are vital in maintaining a healthy economy.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Without wanting to go down the Brexit road (as there's already a thread for that) it feels to me that the referendum and result were merely signifiers and by-products of our ongoing national decline, some of the roots of which stretch back decades.

Some of it does go back to a certain other vote in about 1979 involving a certain woman.

We were never going to do well long-term with a policy of austerity. Growing an economy requires investment which means rock-bottom taxes don't work.

 

[birchesgreen]

It goes back further than Brexit, further than Thatcher. It goes back to when the children of those who built the businesses that made Britain great decided that they preferred the spoils rather than the toil. Thus began the sell-off of British business and everything else to foreigners. The easy life, spending money on sports cars rather than investing your business.

As i said earlier, GREED is why this country has declined.

 

[Senex]

A combination of many factors; short term-ism in government planning, a lack of cohesion across society, a stubborn refusal to address social inequality, lack of infrastructure investment, inherent greed, hangovers from the class system (those two may be related though I'm sure there's more to than that)... actually it's hard to know where to begin with this.

Most of that, but also the self-satisfied resting on our laurels of the late 40s and 50s — the "We won the war, isn't Britain [I don't think we called it "the UK" anything like so often then] wonderful, the model of democracy for all to follow, etc" attitude. And as we approach another coronation, who else remembers all the talk of the coming glories of a Second Elizabethan Age and so on? And, of course, we really failed to take on board the lessons of the Suez fiasco.

 

[GS250]

It goes back further than Brexit, further than Thatcher. It goes back to when the children of those who built the businesses that made Britain great decided that they preferred the spoils rather than the toil. Thus began the sell-off of British business and everything else to foreigners. The easy life, spending money on sports cars rather than investing your business.

As i said earlier, GREED is why this country has declined.

This is one of the reasons why the East is going to rapidly outgrow the West. They still value the work = reward principle.

 

[gordonthemoron]

I’m 63, Britain has never planned anything, it’s been a succession of disasters. It would be nice to have some adults in charge

 

[GS250]

I’m 63, Britain has never planned anything, it’s been a succession of disasters. It would be nice to have some adults in charge

The class system and hereditary transition of wealth and power?

Or have we just described most other countries....

 

[brad465]

I think you can apply the word 'Britain' to virtually every other Western country. I've said it before but the West is declining and the East is in the ascendancy.

However I agree with Yorksrob that too much emphasis on outsourcing has particularly hurt Britain. As has the lack of appreciation of those blue collar roles that are vital in maintaining a healthy economy.

Demographics explains this somewhat, in the west most countries have fertility rates below replacement level and have an ageing population, so are relying more on immigration, but the system is nearing its peak. In the east many countries have not yet reached this point, helped by all the outsourcing you refer to going to those countries as well. There are exceptions however, Japan and South Korea are arguably leading the developed world in stagnation and have very low fertility rates (and have notable financial incentives for having children), China is starting to join them too thanks to its one child policy, and even rapid relaxation of restrictions there isn't helping them.

In short, we've for a long time had a system that largely worked on rapid population growth, but this will turn a corner very soon, if not already the case, and as a result a decline is inevitable unless technology can be pushed enough to mitigate things.

 

[deltic]

The reason is very much short-termism which is partly linked to our voting system. We have very little consensus between political parties on long term planning which is clearly seen with regard to transport or other infrastructure. Public transport in our urban areas is dire making it more difficult for companies to recruit and people to find jobs within a reasonable commute compared to similar sized European cities.

There is very little risk taking, or willingness to invest in innovation and new business start ups. We have a poorly skilled workforce, the education system does not give us the skills we need. We want European public services but US tax rates. Nimbyism means development and housebuilding is greatly curtailed in many parts of the country.

Blaming a single politician or political party misses the more fundamental problems the country faces.

 

[Envy123]

I never liked the London-centricism that this economy has. I find it insane that my mother and I have to do long distance commuting from Peterborough, to afford to buy a home but still work in our respective fields.

 

[GS250]

Demographics explains this somewhat, in the west most countries have fertility rates below replacement level and have an ageing population, so are relying more on immigration, but the system is nearing its peak. In the east many countries have not yet reached this point, helped by all the outsourcing you refer to going to those countries as well. There are exceptions however, Japan and South Korea are arguably leading the developed world in stagnation and have very low fertility rates (and have notable financial incentives for having children), China is starting to join them too thanks to its one child policy, and even rapid relaxation of restrictions there isn't helping them.

In short, we've for a long time had a system that largely worked on rapid population growth, but this will turn a corner very soon, if not already the case, and as a result a decline is inevitable unless technology can be pushed enough to mitigate things.

Western women are generally encouraged to put childbearing on hold and put their career first. Equality of opportunity and all that. Sadly mother nature doesn't take overly kindly to this principle and many find themselves childless by 40 with no winner of a man wanting to procreate with them. My present place of work is absolutely full of this particular demographic. Loads of 40-50 something educated women (and men for that matter) who wanted a family at some point but don't have one. Of course its easy to say the cost of raising a family is high but that's never stopped the bottom 10% of society from being prolific in this respect.

 

[kristiang85]

Probably it is inevitable to a degree - all successful societies and empires decline eventually, to be replaced by others (though with perhaps a 'dark age' inbetween).

Much like old age - you may be able to stave it off for a while, but not forever. Too many factors eventually go wrong.

None of that means we should just quietly accept it - I'm sure there are quite a number of things we could do to avoid declining at quite the dramatic rate we currently seem to be experiencing. There doesn't seem to be any political will to do so, however, from any of the main parties.

Indeed. Look at the Mongolian empire - once the greatest empire in the world, yet now is completely irrelevant and a dusty nowhere.

Just because we are British doesn't mean we won't risk a similar collapse in the very long term.

But it's not just us, it's the whole of Europe really. I've spent the last couple of weeks travelling the Gulf states and it's clear where the money and power is going. Europe as a continent is rapidly becoming just a pretty tourist backwater.

 

[brad465]

Western women are generally encouraged to put childbearing on hold and put their career first. Equality of opportunity and all that. Sadly mother nature doesn't take overly kindly to this principle and many find themselves childless by 40 with no winner of a man wanting to procreate with them. My present place of work is absolutely full of this particular demographic. Loads of 40-50 something educated women (and men for that matter) who wanted a family at some point but don't have one. Of course its easy to say the cost of raising a family is high but that's never stopped the bottom 10% of society from being prolific in this respect.

There are several causes no doubt to all this. On the bottom 10% of society still having children, there seems to be a case that poverty encourages having more children, which maybe down to increasing the chance of at least one of them surviving to adulthood, which would explain why developing countries have a much higher fertility rate than developed ones these days.

Indeed. Look at the Mongolian empire - once the greatest empire in the world, yet now is completely irrelevant and a dusty nowhere.

Just because we are British doesn't mean we won't risk a similar collapse in the very long term.

But it's not just us, it's the whole of Europe really. I've spent the last couple of weeks travelling the Gulf states and it's clear where the money and power is going. Europe as a continent is rapidly becoming just a pretty tourist backwater.

On the plus side Europe has been in its longest sustained widespread period of peace in recorded history. Not perfect of course, The Troubles, the Bosnian War and the Russo-Ukraine war are among examples that have happened post WWII, but far less widespread and severe than centuries before.

 

[duncanp]

Indeed. Look at the Mongolian empire - once the greatest empire in the world, yet now is completely irrelevant and a dusty nowhere.

Just because we are British doesn't mean we won't risk a similar collapse in the very long term.

But it's not just us, it's the whole of Europe really. I've spent the last couple of weeks travelling the Gulf states and it's clear where the money and power is going. Europe as a continent is rapidly becoming just a pretty tourist backwater.

The Gulf states will only be prosperous as long as there is a substantial demand for oil.

With the move to electric cars, and the increasing concern about climate change, there may no longer such a demand in 50 years time.

As regards the UK, I can remember growing up in the 1970s, and we were really up **** creek then.

Never mind inflation at 10%, what about 25%, and the government having to ask the IMF for a bail out.

The changes bought about by Margaret Thatcher were painful for some, but I do think some kind of some kind of economic change would have happened whatever the result of the 1979 election, or if there had been a different leader of the Conservative party at the time.

I also remember a lot of hope that "...things would only get better..." when Tony Blair was elected in 1997. I am not sure that the Blair government delivered on all the promises that they made when they were first elected, and I bet Saint Tony was glad to get out in 2007 before the brown stuff hit the fan with the financial crisis hit in 2008.

I have even heard it said that some in the Labour party were glad that they lost the election in 2010, because it meant that the nasty old Tories would have to take all the difficult decisions regarding recovering the economy after the financial crisis. Remember the treasury minister who wrote the "...there is no money left..." note, and thought it was a joke.

As for the future, whoever wins the next election will have as their number one priority recovering the economy from the effects of COVID, and sorting out the housing market and the NHS. I don't think there will be any substantial change to our relationship with the E.U. during the lifetime of the next parliament.

 

[Intercity110]

I have even heard it said that some in the Labour party were gald that they lost the election in 2010, because it meant that the nasty old Tories would have to take all the difficult decisions regarding recovering the economy after the financial crisis. Remember the treasury minister who wrote the "...there is no money left..." note, and thought it was a joke..

what does gald mean?

 

[birchesgreen]

what does gald mean?

Glad i assume and Liam Byrne's "joke" was something done at every change of government but Osborne, always one for a political stunt, made something of it.

As for the Gulf its probably going to be virtually uninhabitable before very long unless we do something about climate change now, and even that might be too late. They'll be able to afford the air con for now i guess.

 

[yorksrob]

Indeed. Look at the Mongolian empire - once the greatest empire in the world, yet now is completely irrelevant and a dusty nowhere.

Just because we are British doesn't mean we won't risk a similar collapse in the very long term.

But it's not just us, it's the whole of Europe really. I've spent the last couple of weeks travelling the Gulf states and it's clear where the money and power is going. Europe as a continent is rapidly becoming just a pretty tourist backwater.

We should have heeded Tony Benn's advice and set up that sovereign wealth fund with the North Sea oil revenues.

 

[Runningaround]

1066
1660 The return of a Monarchy
1707 The act of Union
2016 Brexit when being in a Union was beneficial it left one.

 

[Jamiescott1]

The replies to this question show how different "gone wrong" is perceived.
Some people mentioned prosperity, some being the "best" in the world.
Happiness hasn't been mentioned.
Id rather live in a country that constantly ranks in the top of the happiness leagues (like the Scandinavian countries) rather than a proporous country (like the gulf States).

 

[Noddy]

We've had numerous threads about where political parties went wrong, but as Britain is in such a state at the moment I thought I would start a general 'where it went wrong' thread.

It seems we have a State that can do nothing else but slowly and quietly to destroy the country.

I don’t think Britain has ‘gone wrong’. Yes there have been mistakes (eg Brexit) and things could always be better, but the problem is people are too ready to look back at the past with rose tinted glasses or compare our GDP, covid deaths, rail system or whatever with cherry picked neighbours while completely failing to look at those countries in the round. The grass is always greener as they say… The reality is we live in a global society and global economy and all major countries have issues.