where are the two windhoff OHL wiring trains??

[Tin Rocket]

Anyone know where the two wiring trains used on the WCML upgrade are??have'nt seen them for yonks are they stored or have they been flogged off? are there any plans to use them?

 

[Hydro]

I remember seeing one in a siding not so long ago, but I'm buggered if I can remember where. AFAIK they're still around.

 

[Old Timer]

Anyone know where the two wiring trains used on the WCML upgrade are??have'nt seen them for yonks are they stored or have they been flogged off? are there any plans to use them?

Last heard of rusting in a siding somewhere - Crewe I had heard.

After the WCRM had finished Network Rail decided to "break" the OHL Contractors, and mothballing the trains was a constituent part of the cutting back on the work being offered. The idea was that they would force the OHL Infrastructure Contractors staff to make their staff redundant so that NR would then walk in and offer them a pittance - and this indeed did happen.

The outcome of course was that all the best staff went to Australia and New Zealand, leaving the UK to the tender mercies of those who were either not considered suitable or were happy to take the NR shilling and work for nothing, together with Eastern Europeans of questionable experience.

We now do not have a credible core pool of experienced OHL construction staff, and those who are left will shortly be commanding incredible sums of money as Network Rail have destroyed the UK work pool.

This is what makes the Network Rail aspirations (dreams) of electrification so laughable.

The recent Finsbury Park project was won by Balfour Beatty Rail who will be bringing in their own German OHL staff because they have concentrated on the foreign market leaving NR to come back cap in hand so to speak.

Unfortunately NR being less than intellectually "gifted" cannot see that you do not go out of your way to break your big Infrastructure Contractors if you want to have a plausible Contractor supply chain.

Methinks that payback time will soon be here - and NR will be getting it in bucketloads

 

[Aictos]

The recent Finsbury Park project was won by Balfour Beatty Rail who will be bringing in their own German OHL staff because they have concentrated on the foreign market leaving NR to come back cap in hand so to speak.

What Finsbury Park project?

 

[WatcherZero]

NR are buying more factory trains. one of the major issues with the originals was they were too heavy for bridges on the WCML and so they had to be moved by road, wonder if the replacements are capable of solving that issue.

 

[Old Timer]

What Finsbury Park project?

The new Flyover

NR are buying more factory trains. one of the major issues with the originals was they were too heavy for bridges on the WCML and so they had to be moved by road, wonder if the replacements are capable of solving that issue.

Who gave you that information ?

 

[WatcherZero]

2005 documentary on WCML upgrades, said that they could only use it in small batches between bridges and they had to transport it by road to a new site because of weight.

New factory trains are part of the GWML electrification budget and maybe used in the Lancashire triangle too later in the program after first few lines done. NR has settled on specifications and are looking for someone to build them.

Specification:
Covers 1.5km per 8 hour shift
3x factory train, budget £30m
450m long in total per 'unit' or factory
first 3 trains install piles and poles
fourth train strings cables
5th does inspection and electrical testing

[youtube]xFg0EOUJNrc[/youtube]

 

[DarloRich]

York Holgate

 

[OxtedL]

York Holgate

Enough said!

But, errr, do they need the factory trains to do that?

 

[Old Timer]

2005 documentary on WCML upgrades, said that they could only use it in small batches between bridges and they had to transport it by road to a new site because of weight.

New factory trains are part of the GWML electrification budget and maybe used in the Lancashire triangle too later in the program after first few lines done. NR has settled on specifications and are looking for someone to build them.

Specification:
Covers 1.5km per 8 hour shift
3x factory train, budget £30m
450m long in total per 'unit' or factory
first 3 trains install piles and poles
fourth train strings cables
5th does inspection and electrical testing

Very strange as I have worked with the Windhoffs and never heard that weight has been a problem. They are used extensively in Europe without these sorts of issues. I shall do a little asking about I think.

As regards Network Rail "specifying" a new train, ye gods, the Continentals who are the experts at this type of equipment have perfectly good trains which do a good enough job for them.

Plasser & Theurer.- production range machines for renewal.htm


Plasser American Catenary Installation Unit

 

[Tin Rocket]

2005 documentary on WCML upgrades, said that they could only use it in small batches between bridges and they had to transport it by road to a new site because of weight.

New factory trains are part of the GWML electrification budget and maybe used in the Lancashire triangle too later in the program after first few lines done. NR has settled on specifications and are looking for someone to build them.

Specification:
Covers 1.5km per 8 hour shift
3x factory train, budget £30m
450m long in total per 'unit' or factory
first 3 trains install piles and poles
fourth train strings cables
5th does inspection and electrical testing

[youtube]xFg0EOUJNrc[/youtube]

Can the windhoffs that were bought renew the catenary and contact in a headspan scenario such as the east coast?has the GWML been costed using headspans or the more reliable cantilevers and booms?the 8 hours quoted must only be for running a new tension length surely?you can't pile foundations erect steelwork install SPS run and register a new tension length can you?also whos going to be doing this theres hardly any overhead lads about now i should know i'm one of em.

 

[SouthStand]

The specs above state 1.5km per shift. For comparison, how fast was the ECML done?

 

[boing_uk]

surely?you can't pile foundations erect steelwork

It depends on the choice of foundation. Using a screw pile you could probably get one mast done per hour, perhaps 1 1/2.

 

[Smoggy]

The dire state of affairs is that at the weekend, it was more cost effective for Balfours to fly in a OLE Supervisor, Engineer and Linesmen from Romania and put them in hotels in to cover OLE works on the MML than to use UK staff!

 

[Old Timer]

The specs above state 1.5km per shift. For comparison, how fast was the ECML done?

It is not a direct comparison I am afraid. They are completely different methods of construction.

Depending upon the depth, and diameter of the pile, together with the ground conditions, it can take anything from 20 minutes to over an hour to install a pile using a conventional hammered pile.

Screw piles are of the "Screwfast" design with three legs. I am not sure if they have been approved for OHL work - I suspect not.

If Network Rail think that they can install 1.5 km of OHL per shift with the first half of the train installing the foundations and the rear installing the OHL then they have completely lost the plot.

A simple review of the critical path through the whole activity timeline will demonstrate that it cannot work.

I sense a re-run of the WCRM resignalling fiasco in the offing.

The dire state of affairs is that at the weekend, it was more cost effective for Balfours to fly in a OLE Supervisor, Engineer and Linesmen from Romania and put them in hotels in to cover OLE works on the MML than to use UK staff!

There are no UK staff, that is the point.

Welcome to the new world of Network Rail.

 

[WatcherZero]

Well theres 3 trains each pile two at a time, so six piles in say 30 minutes, say they pile for 6 hours of the shift thats 72 piles, say their 20m apart and thats roughly 1.5km.

 

[Old Timer]

Well theres 3 trains each pile two at a time, so six piles in say 30 minutes, say they pile for 6 hours of the shift thats 72 piles, say their 20m apart and thats roughly 1.5km.

A theoretical example, but not one that works from a practical point of view.

Firstly Structures are not 20m apart. The distance varies site by site and equipment type by equipment type. The size of pile varies as I stated by ground conditions and depth.

If your example assumes that the piles are installed on each side of the line then there will be issues with the lifting rating of the arm and the piling rig. It also means a block on both lines.

To the 6 hours then needs to be added the remaining activities.

 

[Hydro]

I can see the piling being done before the wiring trains arrive. Holes appearing lineside before any MPV's decide to turn up and crane masts into position.

The idea that NR would do this in house is not realistic. It'd be a contract job, and the contractors would source the expertise wherever they can. OT is correct in saying that a lot of domestic engineering knowledge, not just in OHLE engineering, has been lost via various means.

 

[WatcherZero]

A theoretical example, but not one that works from a practical point of view.

Firstly Structures are not 20m apart. The distance varies site by site and equipment type by equipment type. The size of pile varies as I stated by ground conditions and depth.

If your example assumes that the piles are installed on each side of the line then there will be issues with the lifting rating of the arm and the piling rig. It also means a block on both lines.

To the 6 hours then needs to be added the remaining activities.

Which is exactly why I said 6 and not 8. Of course the support distance will vary, closer in corners and further apart in straights. I was only trying to illustrate an average, rule of thumb is usually one vehicle length apart on straights depending on primary usage.

 

[Old Timer]

Which is exactly why I said 6 and not 8. Of course the support distance will vary, closer in corners and further apart in straights. I was only trying to illustrate an average, rule of thumb is usually one vehicle length apart on straights depending on primary usage.

Yes but again theory is not borne out by practice.

As no ground condition depth surveys are likely to be done, it is the case that a pile can hit an obstruction. In this case all that can be done is that the pile has to be repositioned slightly, within a margin.

Whilst this is being done of course everything else stops. In the worst case, it may be that the particular pile has to be left because it is not posssible to re-position the location. Now you have a dilemma. Do you continue with the remainder of the piling knowing that (a) you have a pile incomplete, and (b) that the positioning of the subsequent piles are all relative to the preceeding pile ?

As for the rest of the train following up expecting to wire up the section - what then ? You will have no catenary support because you are missing a pile and thus you cannot proceed.

This is why the WCRM OHL Alliance developed the system they did, and why they never moved to the stage that NR say they will. The guys who developed this were highly experienced Balfour Beatty OHL Engineers together with their German counterparts and Windhoff.

Whilst I hate to appear negative, as publicised, Network Rail's intentions do not stand up to detailed engineering scrutiny. If the development of such a system worked logically then they would not have to "specify" such a train - it would already be working.

Truth is that such trains are working and have been since before Network Rail was a gleam in the avaricous eyes of Labour. They choose to separate out the foundations (piling) aspect for some very good reasons.

And with this we identify the nub of the problem, which is the lack of good OHL Engineers within Network Rail. It is the culture of bullying that pervades NR from top to bottom as well as the terms and conditions of employment. Why work for 50% of what an Infrastructure Contractor will pay you and with Contract terms that are far inferior ? Why work for an organisation that demands total obsequence, and which whilst having a public stance of operating a "No Blame" culture in actual fact penalises heavily anyone who questions safety over performance ? No-one wants work work in such an atmosphere.

Unfortunately Network Rail believe that to get around this you can pull an electrical engineer out of a University somewhere and turn them into an OHL Engineer by sending them out for a few shifts with the NR OHL maintenance teams. Big mistake.

Firstly OHL engineering is a mechanical engineering skill to which electrical engineering is an almost complete aside, and secondly there is a vast difference between greasing the OHL, slicing in the odd new section of wire, and replacing on a like for like basis equipment which has already been installed as against actually installing new equipment.

We have already seen to result of using NR maintenance staff in the form of the OCS team. The one group who were notable by their absence at Rugby when they always seemed to find something important to do well away from the centre of the work - or were sent away out of the way.

A new OHL switch was installed by NR maintenance staff who made such a hash of the whole installation that for a week the whole of Rugby was in effect one huge electrical section.

The situation was only resolved by Balfour Beatty who flew in a team of their Engineers (note the use of the capital letter) who dismantled it and rebuilt it correctly the following weekend.

And all this was done by English OHL staff. God only knows what will happen when the Eastern Europeans with poor language skills, who will be working for NR through some agency paying pennies, appear on the scene. This will have to happen because the OHL pool has been drained to Australia, and the people who are left will be commanding large sums for their experience.

In trying to break the OHL Contractors Network Rail have created a nightmare situation for themselves where it is now going to cost them vastly more money, and they will have to use staff with considerably less experience at a much higher rate than would have been the case if they had left things.

In a perfect example of a complete lack of joined up thinking, NR then propose to electrify stand-alone routes - rather than linking up the key elctrified route thus providing diversionary alternatives to existing. The recent issues on the ECML more than prove this point. NR propose to do this at a time when power stations are going to be taken off-line and there are already serious discussions about how the Country will manage the power cuts that will be necessary to handle the existing domestic demand as a result of Labour's failure in office to tackle the problem of electricity demand exceeding supply. Something known about since the late 1990s.

 

[Tin Rocket]

Stumpy wrighton would'nt let anyone hide out the way