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View attachment 183309
On Southeastern's map, Sevenoaks is outside of both the Oyster fare zones and contactless (shown with the dotted line) zones. View attachment 183310
However, on the Govia Thameslink Railway map, Sevenoaks is shown in the contactless zone but NOT the Oyster card zones.
It's confusing and I could not tell you exactly what it is.
Operators often don't update their maps, or where they do, still keep old map files accessible to Google search (even if no longer linked to on their website).
Operators often don't update their maps, or where they do, still keep old map files accessible to Google search (even if no longer linked to on their website).
I am not sure it is off topic. The question of contactless zones, enforcement of contactless vs tickets and ticket/revenue inspection is all very interlinked in the SE, and pretty confusing, as we are discovering!
Slightly more embarrassed to ask as a regular commuter down here, but what is the difference?
I think in a lot of commuter’s heads there is Oyster/TfL zones and there are operator specific smart card schemes but I am not sure many people have a particularly good idea of what happens as a result of checking of the card - what happens next. It sounds like if it is checked in a TfL zone then it is considered an Oyster infringement and so the TfL max fare applies?
What is a lot less clear to me is what if you card is checked outside of a TfL zone? To be honest, I am so confused by it all that at the moment I buy a paper or e-ticket ticket if going out of the TfL zone and I don’t want to receive a penalty fare. However, if an inspector checks when I am outside the TfL zones but inside a contactless zone, what happens next?
Are the readers set up to recognise that you tapped in in a TfL zone that is also within a contactless zone?
We took a group hiking a couple of weeks ago and we were trying to work out what the whole contactless thing was about and it was so unclear whether the station we were travelling to was contactless or not that we decided to exercise caution and just buy a group save.
Slightly more embarrassed to ask as a regular commuter down here, but what is the difference?
I think in a lot of commuter’s heads there is Oyster/TfL zones and there are operator specific smart card schemes but I am not sure many people have a particularly good idea of what happens as a result of checking of the card - what happens next. It sounds like if it is checked in a TfL zone then it is considered an Oyster infringement and so the TfL max fare applies?
What is a lot less clear to me is what if you card is checked outside of a TfL zone? To be honest, I am so confused by it all that at the moment I buy a paper or e-ticket ticket if going out of the TfL zone and I don’t want to receive a penalty fare. However, if an inspector checks when I am outside the TfL zones but inside a contactless zone, what happens next?
Are the readers set up to recognise that you tapped in in a TfL zone that is also within a contactless zone?
We took a group hiking a couple of weeks ago and we were trying to work out what the whole contactless thing was about and it was so unclear whether the station we were travelling to was contactless or not that we decided to exercise caution and just buy a group save.
I think the thing is that contactless is the same price as a normal fare, but with Oyster you get nice things like the daily caps (£8.90 Zone 1-2 cap for instance) and you can put SOME Railcards on it. Stations that accept contact-but-not-Oyster are all outside of the normal 1-6 area anyway so fares will cost quite a bit.
Dartford and Sevenoaks are both in Zone 8, but only Dartford can use Oyster as of right now.
NEVER MIND I WAS VERY WRONG! Despite being both in Zone 8, Dartford-Charing Cross costs £5.70 (or £7.00 sometimes even in off-peak) whereas Sevenoaks-Charing Cross is £8.40.
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I will admit I am getting side-tracked here because I have no clue how they would check to see if you paid or not.
Slightly more embarrassed to ask as a regular commuter down here, but what is the difference?
I think in a lot of commuter’s heads there is Oyster/TfL zones and there are operator specific smart card schemes but I am not sure many people have a particularly good idea of what happens as a result of checking of the card - what happens next. It sounds like if it is checked in a TfL zone then it is considered an Oyster infringement and so the TfL max fare applies?
What is a lot less clear to me is what if you card is checked outside of a TfL zone? To be honest, I am so confused by it all that at the moment I buy a paper or e-ticket ticket if going out of the TfL zone and I don’t want to receive a penalty fare. However, if an inspector checks when I am outside the TfL zones but inside a contactless zone, what happens next?
Are the readers set up to recognise that you tapped in in a TfL zone that is also within a contactless zone?
We took a group hiking a couple of weeks ago and we were trying to work out what the whole contactless thing was about and it was so unclear whether the station we were travelling to was contactless or not that we decided to exercise caution and just buy a group save.
Oyster can be used across London Zones 1-9, plus a handful of extensions beyond Zone 9 such as Shenfield - as indicated by the numbered zones plus the "Outside fare zones" areas on the London Rail & Tube map. This does not include Sevenoaks or anywhere else on the Southeastern network beyond Zone 9 (in reality Z8 as SE doesn't have any Z9 stations).
Contactless is valid everywhere that Oyster is valid, as well as further extensions beyond Zone 9 on several routes. This includes Sevenoaks, Luton Airport Parkway and Reading amongst others. This map, linked to previously, is the authoritative map showing which routes contactless PAYG is valid for.
If you encounter a revenue inspection within the area where Oyster is valid, you can produce either an Oyster or contactless card and this will be checked. On sections of route where only contactless is valid, obviously an Oyster card would not be accepted. With Oyster, since the journey history is stored locally on the card, the inspector can see whether you touched in (if not, they would likely issue a Penalty Fare or take details for prosecution).
With contactless, nothing is stored locally and the time taken to transmit the journey history to the back office is highly variable - so all the inspector can establish at the time of inspection is whether the card is blocked (e.g. due to overdue travel charges or having 3 failed inspections). As long as the card isn't blocked, it will show up as valid and they will accept it.
After 04:29 the following day (when the TfL PAYG charging day ends), the back office system looks at all of the touches that took place. If it sees that you were not touched in at the time of the revenue inspection, you will be charged a maximum fare and/or a failed inspection charge. This will also count as one of the 3 'strikes' (failed revenue inspections) that will see your card blocked.
The amounts you would be charged for the above are not explicitly stated on the TfL website, and IIRC they have refused FoI requests in the past on the basis of not wanting to encourage fare evasion. However we can surmise that it would probably be based on a notional fare from somewhere (perhaps Zone 9) to Zone 1, and that it would not be worth it on a regular basis.
I think the thing is that contactless is the same price as a normal fare, but with Oyster you get nice things like the daily caps (£8.90 Zone 1-2 cap for instance) and you can put SOME Railcards on it. Stations that accept contact-but-not-Oyster are all outside of the normal 1-6 area anyway so fares will cost quite a bit.
Dartford and Sevenoaks are both in Zone 8, but only Dartford can use Oyster as of right now.
NEVER MIND I WAS VERY WRONG! Despite being both in Zone 8, Dartford-Charing Cross costs £5.70 (or £7.00 sometimes even in off-peak) whereas Sevenoaks-Charing Cross is £8.40.
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I will admit I am getting side-tracked here because I have no clue how they would check to see if you paid or not.
Sevenoaks is NOT in Zone 8; it is well beyond the numbered Zones. Contactless is valid as far as Sevenoaks, but on the SE network Oyster is only valid to the last station in the Zones - either Knockholt or Swanley, depending on which route you take.
You are probably seeing a £7.00 fare because you have selected Charing Cross Underground station rather than the National Rail station. A higher fare generally applies for a journey between the same zones, if it involves both National Rail and Underground services (as opposed to just one of the two modes).
Not really. It's perfectly lawful to discriminate against a job applicant on the basis of an unspent criminal conviction.
The only real prevention is the rehabilitation of offenders act, but in this case you don't need to tick the box about convictions because it'll be a tick box about unspent convictions.
This is unless you are applying for a role which permits the use of a higher level check, e.g. an Enhanced DBS/Disclosures Scotland check; but then again, it is lawful to discriminate against the candidate on the basis of their conviction.
I review 'adverse disclosures' for a charity - basically enhanced DBS' and Disclosure Scotland checks which don't come back with murder or sexual offences, but also don't come back 'clean'. I find the best applicants are those who proactively ask for a phone chat before the disclosure even gets submitted and say look I was done for evading a train fare a few years ago, I'd lost my job but needed to be somewhere, whatever. It's why I'd pretty much always advise that if you know your criminal record is going to be disclosed, get a step ahead and phone the hiring manager or the HR department and explain. They'll appreciate the honesty and it won't come as a surprise possibly weeks into starting the job and then being sacked.
I'm sympathetic to people with certain criminal records, but I imagine most employers faced with a dozen shortlisted candidates who see someone with an unspent conviction would absolutely use it as a quick method of filtering people out.
I encounter ticket inspectors and checks on Greater Anglia more than with any other operator.
Very common to see two or three revenue people board, particularly at Shenfield. Travelling yesterday my ticket was checked twice by inspectors and once by the guard - who are generally very active on Harwich, Clacton & Walton lines.
(In addition to TFL check on Romford - Upminster).
This is anecdata, but yesterday my ticket was checked by RPIs in both directions on my London to Cambridge commute, and then this morning, the same train was inspected by two separate RPI teams (one boarding at Tottenham, the other at Stortford). I'm not sure they knew about each other's schedules, as I had to explain to an inspector in the second team that someone nearby, whose first language was not English, had already had their details taken for an expired Railcard by the first team! Both the inspector and the passenger seemed grateful...
I travel on average about 10x weekly, split between CrossCountry and SWR - almost always in 1st. Just ran the numbers and I've had my ticket checked on about 75% of XC services this year, compared to just 5% on SWR. It's a surprise therefore that my first experience of a First Class 'invasion' on the latter's 450 was only last week - I would've expected that kind of thing to happen a lot sooner! Only started travelling more frequently with XC last month whereas I've been a regular user of SWR for a long time now.
I travel on average about 10x weekly, split between CrossCountry and SWR - almost always in 1st. Just ran the numbers and I've had my ticket checked on about 75% of XC services this year, compared to just 5% on SWR. It's a surprise therefore that my first experience of a First Class 'invasion' on the latter's 450 was only last week - I would've expected that kind of thing to happen a lot sooner! Only started travelling more frequently with XC last month whereas I've been a regular user of SWR for a long time now.
On the South Coast - thankfully it's rare that I have to be in London. I was there at the end of last week though, and both of the 450s I used between Waterloo and Chiswick were declassified - I'm surprised they haven't opted to do the same down here if I'm honest.
That's my point. At my local station there's always a mad dash to get the nice chairs, which are suspiciously empty even though the train has travelled a few stops. I wonder why they removed First Class though (as a sectioned off bit, obviously you can still sit in it).
If I was fare evading (which I wouldn't be), and I saw this from the train, I'd just stay on til the next stop, buy a single, and return.
People used to do this on the Nottingham trams all the time. If they see revenue inspectors board, they get off and wait for the next tram. If they see revenue inspectors on the platform, they stay on for another stop. Obviously it's a bit easier with the trams due to different regulations, and open platforms with no enforceable* compulsory ticket areas.
You've got to be pretty amateur to be caught fare evading with such a visible presence at a two-platform station like Merstham. Mind you, I suspect the average fare evader isn't the brightest.
* they do have compulsory ticket areas but they're garbage, because that's where the ticket machines are!
Once saw someone trying to bump the barriers at Bromley South. A DfT Category B station. One of the only stations in Bromley to actually have barriers.
That day and that time also BTP officers on another platform responding to something. I'm sure they came over shortly after I left.
All I can say is that the fare evader should've tried Bromley North instead.
Once saw someone trying to bump the barriers at Bromley South. A DfT Category B station. One of the only stations in Bromley to actually have barriers.
That day and that time also BTP officers on another platform responding to something. I'm sure they came over shortly after I left.
All I can say is that the fare evader should've tried Bromley North instead.
I used to travel to/from Beeston (Notts) quite often. While there weren't any barriers, they did occasionally do revenue inspection by blocking the two main exits.
You could spot revenue protection very easily from the train, so you'd think just travel 6 mins to Nottingham or idk 15 mins to Long Eaton, buy a fare, and return. Or if going northbound, walk to the south end of the platform and go through the platform access gate to The Victoria's beer garden and exit that way with no inspectors.
The number of people I saw caught was absurd. I'm no fare evader, but I reckon I could do it better than a lot. I suppose I only see those who get caught though, and not all the people who get away with it.
I rather like the way they do revenue blocks on the Tyne & Wear Metro....or did when I last travelled on it some years ago. The Revenue Inspectors descend mob-handed on a particular stop and when a train arrives they all swarm aboard, checking everybody's tickets and passes while the train is stationary. Anybody without a valid ticket or pass is turfed-out and dealt with on the platform, with a quick tip to the driver and the train is on its way with the honest passengers still on board.
I wonder who controls the locking of the gate. Having never found it locked in the hundreds of times I used it, I can't even recall what side of the gate the lock is.
Both parties would have an interest. EMR wouldn't want drunk people stumbling onto the tracks, or evading revenue protection staff; the pub wouldn't want drunk people stumbling onto the tracks, or people wandering into/through their beer garden when they're closed.
I'll be in Nottingham next month to meet up with some pals; I might pop in and ask!
I really despise this pseudo-police militia look. It looks so unprofessional, bordering on laughing stock, especially when there’s bellies hanging out as seen in the picture.
I really despise this pseudo-police militia look. It looks so unprofessional, bordering on laughing stock, especially when there’s bellies hanging out as seen in the picture.
I saw a couple of guys sporting a similar look a couple of days ago but I didn't laugh at them as they were officers of the local constabulary arresting some miscreant.
I really despise this pseudo-police militia look. It looks so unprofessional, bordering on laughing stock, especially when there’s bellies hanging out as seen in the picture.
Does anyone have any experience with ticket inspectors on the other companies within London? SWR, c2c, Chiltern, Great Northern, so on. It seems clear that yet again in Britain's railways that London and everywhere else are different.
I've seen them get on at Sydenham Hill before on Southeastern. Thameslink have RPIs get on occasionally normally at East Croydon in the evenings for passangers going out of London
I rather like the way they do revenue blocks on the Tyne & Wear Metro....or did when I last travelled on it some years ago. The Revenue Inspectors descend mob-handed on a particular stop and when a train arrives they all swarm aboard, checking everybody's tickets and passes while the train is stationary. Anybody without a valid ticket or pass is turfed-out and dealt with on the platform, with a quick tip to the driver and the train is on its way with the honest passengers still on board.
Was checked by Revenue Inspectors (as opposed to guards) on a Chiltern Mk3 set last week, first time in over 7 years of travelling on them regularly.
However, checks by a guard happen quite regularly on the Mk3s, and 165s/168s north of Banbury.
Don't think I've ever seen RPIs on the DOO services south of Banbury, though I suspect they probably concentrate more on the short distance stoppers.
It does seem Chiltern rely heavily on the gateline at Marylebone (and the number of Wembley Stadium dodgers that virtually hand themselves in on a plate when those tickets are blocked by the barriers).
On my recent TfW travels, was checked on every train (as many stations are unstaffed and have no ticketing facilities). One on the Cambrian even had one member of staff doing doors and the other doing tickets, as well as helping with the ramp assists.
I'm normally going in the Banbury to Birmingham direction, and there was a step change about 18 months ago. Before then, the barriers at Banbury were often open in the mornings, and it was rare for them to be in operation in the evenings. Nowadays it's normal for a ticket inspection to take place just as the train leaves Banbury. Although very unusual to see any ticket inspections past Leamington. Likewise on the way home in the evenings, it's rare for ticket inspections to happen before Leamington, by which time the train is half empty.
Yesterday, unusually, the train manager started checking tickets the moment the train left Moor St. In my carriage alone he sold half a dozen Birmingham to Solihull/Hatton/Dorridge tickets. Not once did he ask the passengers how they got through the barriers at Snow Hill/Moor St, or why they didn't have a ticket in the first place. Makes me suspect fair evasion at the Birmingham end is rife.
If I was fare evading (which I wouldn't be), and I saw this from the train, I'd just stay on til the next stop, buy a single, and return.
People used to do this on the Nottingham trams all the time. If they see revenue inspectors board, they get off and wait for the next tram. If they see revenue inspectors on the platform, they stay on for another stop. Obviously it's a bit easier with the trams due to different regulations, and open platforms with no enforceable* compulsory ticket areas.
You've got to be pretty amateur to be caught fare evading with such a visible presence at a two-platform station like Merstham. Mind you, I suspect the average fare evader isn't the brightest.
* they do have compulsory ticket areas but they're garbage, because that's where the ticket machines are!
On Manchester trams the inspectors board and shepherd people without tickets off onto the platform before allowing the tram to proceed to its next stop. Obviously, there is also the option to self-disembark but there is then a second line of inspectors lying in wait manning each exit gate so the miscreants are trapped on the platform and dealt with accordingly.
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