When will someone do something about CrossCountry

[The Ham]

Didn’t realise XC made a profit!
Making money out of adding capacity depends on there being significant demand that is currently put off. I am not saying there isn’t but you lose money if you add a coach and only carry the same people (but they all get a seat). There is also the issue of providing the extra capacity for the whole diagram but it might only be crowded for a small part in the middle.

Whilst the extra coach would only mean extra seats just to absorb those who are already standing you'll then attract more people to stand.

However that misses the point that there would be a load of extra seats for those services which have gone from a single 4 coach unit to a pair of 5 coach units over the core.

 

[Mogz]

Perhaps if XC didn’t have a reputation for being the Sardine Express, then perhaps more people would use it if the trains were lengthened!

 

[Anonymous10]

Really?

HSTs are slow and don’t keep to time easily hence why they’re kept to specific workings much like why on the Midland Mainline they’re used more on the semi fast Nottingham’s instead of the fast Sheffield’s.

The fact is that HSTs are only a stop gap for Cross Country and should be retired having been replaced by rolling stock that is more suitable for the 21st Century.

Yes passengers want a seat but it’s been explained to you and others here by people who’s job it is to diagram trains across the network why HSTs don’t keep to Voyager timings.

I'll agree they won't keep the times but until there's more available better to have the more hst's on more routes to ease overcrowding as a rail using member of the public and not a huge enthusiast I can testify all we want is a seat at a fair price idc if it's a little slower

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

I'll agree they won't keep the times but until there's more available better to have the more hst's on more routes to ease overcrowding as a rail using member of the public and not a huge enthusiast I can testify all we want is a seat at a fair price idc if it's a little slower

Yep - on the 16/04/20 I'd rather the 15:03 from Birmingham New Street to Edinburgh was a little late and the HST ran (and have my Quiet Coach seat) than a Voyager run in its place just to avoid the very short delay, considering there's what 5 minutes to claw back in the journey.

 

[Jozhua]

I first used XC about 10 years ago and it was bad then... Still just as bad now.

It's an embarrassment nothing has been done. I really hope that more Voyagers move across come 2022, it's 10 years too late, but better than nothing. I have a feeling it will be more like 2024/5 before anything is done though.

I'd love to make more trips on the routes XC cover, but due to the lack of advance fares and the discomfort of the journey, I avoid making the trip at all. Coach isn't really an option for me, I get travel sick when travelling by road for more than 20-30 minutes.

 

[Mogz]

I first used XC about 10 years ago and it was bad then... Still just as bad now.

It's an embarrassment nothing has been done. I really hope that more Voyagers move across come 2022, it's 10 years too late, but better than nothing. I have a feeling it will be more like 2024/5 before anything is done though.

I'd love to make more trips on the routes XC cover, but due to the lack of advance fares and the discomfort of the journey, I avoid making the trip at all. Coach isn't really an option for me, I get travel sick when travelling by road for more than 20-30 minutes.

I first used CrossCountry about 20 years ago and, whilst the service was not as frequent (it may have been over the very core), they served far more destinations, operated long trains of hand-me-down stock which had seen better days (but which ultimately had very comfortable seating), and they had proper buffets serving hot food. I don’t remember ever seeing anyone standing.

I remember being very excited about the Voyagers but was dismayed after my first ride on one as although the trains were fast, shiny and new, the passenger experience seemed to have taken a huge leap backwards with the cramped seating layout and short formations.

The EMT Meridians with their longer trains, better seating and less cramped interiors showed just what could have been done with the CrossCountry Voyagers, which is what makes the present situation such a shame.

Adding a couple of coaches (perhaps laid out in the VT/Avanti all-tables-coach format) to each set, and restoring the buffet would make a huge difference to the travelling experience.

I do hope that XC get the Meridians and double up the Voyagers as a result. Probably the best we can hope for, and even that may be optimistic!

 

[TheWalrus]

Here’s an idea: do we really need first class on XC? If all first class coaches were converted to standard how many additional standard class seats would this create? May be an easier solution to solve the overcrowding.

 

[greatvoyager]

I first used CrossCountry about 20 years ago and, whilst the service was not as frequent (it may have been over the very core), they served far more destinations, operated long trains of hand-me-down stock which had seen better days (but which ultimately had very comfortable seating), and they had proper buffets serving hot food. I don’t remember ever seeing anyone standing.

I remember being very excited about the Voyagers but was dismayed after my first ride on one as although the trains were fast, shiny and new, the passenger experience seemed to have taken a huge leap backwards with the cramped seating layout and short formations.

The EMT Meridians with their longer trains, better seating and less cramped interiors showed just what could have been done with the CrossCountry Voyagers, which is what makes the present situation such a shame.

Adding a couple of coaches (perhaps laid out in the VT/Avanti all-tables-coach format) to each set, and restoring the buffet would make a huge difference to the travelling experience.

I do hope that XC get the Meridians and double up the Voyagers as a result. Probably the best we can hope for, and even that may be optimistic!

I agree, although I'm not too bothered about the buffet personally.
In all honesty, I think the older stock was less comfortable and it didn't feel like a pleasant environment to sit because it felt like no one cared. I suppose that's now what its gone back to.

 

[yorksrob]

To be fair, I did like the old mk2's very much - the refurb in their later years was very pleasent, however they had various issues with things such as the lighting and heating breaking down.They weren't as nice when sat in the vestibule though.

 

[Mogz]

Here’s an idea: do we really need first class on XC? If all first class coaches were converted to standard how many additional standard class seats would this create? May be an easier solution to solve the overcrowding.

I for one would approve of that. Chiltern don’t need a First Class because Standard is already very good. I’d hope that the conversion turned the First Class coach into an all-tables Standard Class carriage for those of us who prefer (or need!) a table seat.

First Class often only has two or three people in it anyway while the rest of the train is packed and standing.

 

[class 9]

First class provision will be in the franchise agreement, so that wouldn’t be able to be changed until the new franchise.
If first class is always empty(which it isn’t) as previously posted, then i don’t think dedicated first class hosts would be kept.
Also the 1st class carriage area is small due to the toilet and galley areas, so even if converted to standard it wouldn’t be a massive increase.

 

[yorksrob]

Getting rid of first class will hardly make dent in the problem. More overall capacity is what's required.

 

[TheWalrus]

Getting rid of first class will hardly make dent in the problem. More overall capacity is what's required.

It would help with a few extra seats though, although I’m not suggesting it would solve the problem entirely.

 

[TheWalrus]

I for one would approve of that. Chiltern don’t need a First Class because Standard is already very good. I’d hope that the conversion turned the First Class coach into an all-tables Standard Class carriage for those of us who prefer (or need!) a table seat.

First Class often only has two or three people in it anyway while the rest of the train is packed and standing.

I think that’s a good idea! Table seats aligned with windows.

 

[yorksrob]

It would help with a few extra seats though, although I’m not suggesting it would solve the problem entirely.

You might have a point. I have horrible memories of when various VEP's and CIG's had their compartments opened out !

 

[TheWalrus]

You might have a point. I have horrible memories of when various VEP's and CIG's had their compartments opened out !

Wasn’t removing the on board shop something to do with making more space for cycles and maybe more seats?

 

[yorksrob]

Wasn’t removing the on board shop something to do with making more space for cycles and maybe more seats?

Yes, I believe it was. I suspect that the little buffet on an 8 carriage mk2 set was more effective use of space than the shop on a 4 carriage voyager.

 

[Starmill]

I was in First Class on the 1827 from Manchester Picc to Bournemouth one weekday evening recently. This service had almost all seats in First Class taken. It was also full and standing in Standard despite being one of only a handful of services which doesn't call at Macclesfield (it calls at Congleton instead).

 

[duffield]

A lot of the time when I travel on XC there are only a handful of seats free in 1st, so if converted to standard the existing 1st class passengers would fill 2/3 of the 'new' seats. On a Voyager you might then get a net gain of about 10 seats. Not worth it for the lost revenue in my opinion.
You would get a better capacity uplift if you converted the composite coach on the HSTs to standard, since 1st class provision is more generous on these; but the HSTs don't seem to have the same overcrowding problems in standard anyhow.

 

[The Ham]

It would help with a few extra seats though, although I’m not suggesting it would solve the problem entirely.

Assuming that you could max out standard class as per the other end coach you'd get 42 standard class seats, however bearing in mind that there's already 26 existing first class seats the net increase would be an increase of 16 seats.

Whilst that would help, the costs associated with doing so (ripping out the existing seating and replacing and the loss of first class revenue) would probably not be worth it for such a few seats.

XC do try and move some from standard to first class by offering (on some legs) first class tickets for not much more than standard class tickets.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

I don't think XC will have an all-Standard Class Voyager fleet - I believe part of their franchise agreement is to have First Class. I spotted this on Twitter ages back (2018 if I'm right).

 

[Scott M]

Another day, another commute.

Another four car 220.

Packed and standing throughout.

Passengers with the 10 minute reservations awkwardly kicking confused people out of their seats.

Tempers a little frayed as passengers ask to be able to get past, but there’s nowhere to move to.

First Class probably empty (I’ve never seen it declassified) taking up a full quarter of the train. No standing in the First Class aisle or vestibule on pain of excess fares.

I’ve made speculative suggestions about CrossCountry in the past- more destinations- high quality stock with continental style amenities for the longest distance journeys, (family compartments, more tables, restaurants, buffets etc).

I renounce all such unrealistic expectations and instead make a single plea:

“More carriages per service, please?”

I suppose even that is too much to ask.

I take XC every week and these points are bang-on - almost poetic.

Can't remember the last time the coffee trolley made it down on any of my twice-weekly 3-hour commutes. I would book first class if it wasn't such a bloody rip-off, honestly think they price themselves out of the market on that one. My return ticket is £58.25 - this goes up to £174.60 (!!) if I book first class. Who is going to pay triple the price? No wonder their first class carriages cart around fresh air. Disgraceful really when the rest of the trains are so cramped.

Who even thought that 4-car voyagers would be a good idea? Why did they not just make them longer back when they were originally built...

Problem is the voyagers offer a much more comfortable ride than the HSTs so I actively avoid the HSTs, luckily I book in advance so I do get a seat reservation. Always feel sorry for the poor sod who I chuck out of my seat though, as I know I am condemning them to a standing journey.

 

[The Ham]

I take XC every week and these points are bang-on - almost poetic.

Can't remember the last time the coffee trolley made it down on any of my twice-weekly 3-hour commutes. I would book first class if it wasn't such a bloody rip-off, honestly think they price themselves out of the market on that one. My weekly return ticket is £58.25 - this goes up to £174.60 (!!) if I book first class. Who is going to pay triple the price? No wonder their first class carriages cart around fresh air. Disgraceful really when the rest of the trains are so cramped.

Who even thought that 4-car voyagers would be a good idea? Why did they not just make them longer back when they were originally built...

Problem is the voyagers offer a much more comfortable ride than the HSTs so I actively avoid the HSTs, luckily I book in advance so I do get a seat reservation. Always feel sorry for the poor sod who I chuck out of my seat though, as I know I am condemning them to a standing journey.

You may find that you could get a good value first class ticket for a section of your journey (traveling the rest of the way in standard), just be aware that there's minimum journey times before you're entitled to some of the first class offerings.

 

[duffield]

I take XC every week and these points are bang-on - almost poetic.

...
No wonder their first class carriages cart around fresh air. Disgraceful really when the rest of the trains are so cramped.
...

My experience is that far from carting around fresh air, at some points between Derby and Bristol 1st class will be 90% full.

 

[Scott M]

My experience is that far from carting around fresh air, at some points between Derby and Bristol 1st class will be 90% full.

Fair - guess my sample size is rather limited to the same two journeys each week.

You may find that you could get a good value first class ticket for a section of your journey (traveling the rest of the way in standard), just be aware that there's minimum journey times before you're entitled to some of the first class offerings.

Good shout - although if I am honest with myself I am too lazy to have to keep changing seats.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

I'll be honest, given the capacity problems on the single Voyager-operated services, it's easy to forget about the Class 170 routes.

Is it true that the centre cars from 6 WMR 170's (170630-170635 I believe) are transferring to XC? I ask as XC haven't said anything and it's been reported on here and on the 'RAIL' magazine website.

I hope so - I believe it would mean 22 x 3-car and 7 x 2-car 170's. Also not one passenger likes a 2-car train being used on the XC 170 routes. I've heard a few express their dissatisfaction a bit at a 2-car 170.

Edit: Just checked Wikipedia and XC have 13 x 2-car and 16 x 3-car 170's.

If the centre cars are transferring to XC then that must mean the 170's will be staying throughout the franchise - I can't see why not ! They're extremely reliable and I understand they had a refresh in 2016/2017 - I know because XC said.

 

[Mogz]

Just had a look at the July-September 1991 timetable.

Liverpool has the following IC CrossCountry departures, weekdays:

0640 to Dover (Canterbury on Saturdays, Brighton on Sundays).

0914 to Cardiff
1015 to Plymouth
1614 to Paddington
1714 to Cardiff
1740 to Poole
2325 to Paignton (arriving 0700 next morning!).

It would be nice if, perhaps once a day in each direction, the current Manchester-Bournemouth and Manchester-Paignton trains could serve Liverpool.

 

[coradiafan2000]

they had a refresh in 2016/2017

Did they? If they did then I sure as hell didn't notice.

As a semi regular user of the Cardiff- Nottingham service I feel like the passenger numbers can be very sporadic. Cardiff- Gloucester is normally pretty quiet, but beyond there it's quite busy. That being said last Wednesday I did a run from Nottingham all the way through to Cardiff and my carriage never got more than half full, and most of the time it was barely a quarter full.

In an ideal world I'd like to see all two car sets increased to three, and all threes increased to fours. It won't happen for obvious reasons, but that's what I'd like to see. I'm fine with 170s on the two routes it operates for now, but I would like to see a capacity upgrade of some sort.

I think XC should prioritise upgrading the capacity on other routes though, as it seems far more urgent.

 

[gingerheid]

Operation Princess makes me sad to this day; it showed the real potential public transport could have, as people would use it.

Instead, as so often happens, we wait for people to get fed up and stop trying, so that the "problem" sorts itself

 

[JonathanH]

It would be nice if, perhaps once a day in each direction, the current Manchester-Bournemouth and Manchester-Paignton trains could serve Liverpool.

What is going to serve Manchester in the gap? How many traincrew are going to have to learn the route from Crewe to Liverpool to service one train a day?

It just isn't practical (or necessary) given the option to change at Stafford, Wolverhampton or Birmingham New Street on a half hourly basis.