When will someone do something about CrossCountry

[Domh245]

I still maintain that Avanti could satisfactorily serve their customers without the 221s that spend their life under wires.

So sod north wales & Shrewsbury?

XC needs them for the governments so-called 'levelling-up' agenda, and this could happen right away now that 'franchise commitments' are dead.

They are paused for 6 months (subject to review) - Avanti's new stock isn't due until 2022, so what are you going to do in that period between the resumption of normal services and the arrival of the planned replacement stock - especially as WCML services aren't exactly empty..

 

[Bletchleyite]

But your username does rather suggest certain a personal interest in WCML over XC, LOL

Yes, it does. But also the WCML is undeniably the most important piece of railway in the UK.

 

[Energy]

Yes, it does. But also the WCML is undeniably the most important piece of railway in the UK.

I'd agree, a couple others such as the ECML are important but the WCML connects a lot of the big cities, such as: London, Birmingham and Manchester.

 

[AndrewE]

Yes, it does. But also the WCML is undeniably the most important piece of railway in the UK.

I'd agree, a couple others such as the ECML are important but the WCML connects a lot of the big cities, such as: London, Birmingham and Manchester.

And the NE-SW route doesn't? How about Bristol, Birmingham, Sheffield/Leeds, York and Newcastle?
It may not serve London, but if Operation Princess had been done with full length trains (rather than falling flat on its face because of overcrowding) you might have seen even higher XC passenger numbers than those suppressed by the overcrowding.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And the NE-SW route doesn't? How about Bristol, Birmingham, Sheffield/Leeds, York and Newcastle?
It may not serve London, but if Operation Princess had been done with full length trains (rather than falling flat on its face because of overcrowding) you might have seen even higher XC passenger numbers than those suppressed by the overcrowding.

I agree. My point is that there can be no possible justification for removing rolling stock from the UK's most important premier InterCity route.

 

[Stephen Lee]

Er, two additional power cars taking the total to 12, not two additional HSTs. The result of these is to allow four full HST sets to be diagrammed on more days of the week but no additional coaches are due.



Not sure where this has been picked up from. Your own post 230 does not include this.

I would think HSTs are good only for stopgap

 

[JonathanH]

I would think HSTs are good only for stopgap

Two additional power cars are good for enabling greater utilisation of the existing HST coaching stock.

As you note, the availability of 221s or 222s released from elsewhere will enable these HSTs to be withdrawn so in that way, yes, they are a stopgap.

They are not going to use any additional HST coaching stock.

 

[The Planner]

But your username does rather suggest certain a personal interest in WCML over XC, LOL . I still maintain that Avanti could satisfactorily serve their customers without the 221s that spend their life under wires. XC needs them for the governments so-called 'levelling-up' agenda, and this could be made to happen right away now that all parties are out the legal and financial straitjackets of 'franchise commitments' and 'premium payments'.

To clarify, are you really suggesting Avanti could run a timetable without 221s? Errrrr....

 

[squizzler]

Don't they have quite a few that never venture out from under the wires, or have they managed to end that wasteful practice?

 

[AndrewE]

Don't they have quite a few that never venture out from under the wires, or have they managed to end that wasteful practice?

They do have them (working Glasgow Euston via the W Midlands) but the point is that they don't have enough electric trains to run their timetable without them.

 

[JonathanH]

Don't they have quite a few that never venture out from under the wires, or have they managed to end that wasteful practice?

Almost all of the daily diagrams include work off the wires - eg a unit that works from Scotland goes to Chester or Holyhead later in the day.

See https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/virgin-voyagers-on-sunday.195974/#post-4312519 for the Sunday workings as an example.

 

[Jozhua]

Indeed, and yet on Twitter people are suggesting that we don't by saying that we no longer need HS2.

I doubt the case for HS2 has changed much since the apocalypse. Obviously temporarily it will have a massive effect, but almost everything is empty right now!

This is all wonderfully cyclic.

"XC capacity is rubbish."
"Agreed."
"Here's an option to increase capacity in the near future (off-lease HSTs)."
"No because xyz."
"Here's another option to increase capacity in the medium-term (surplus Meridians/Voyagers)."
"No because pqr."
"Here's another option to increase capacity for the next few decades (a new build of IETs)."
"No because abc."

Enjoy standing on 4 car Voyagers for several hours for another decade at least everyone.

I believe off-lease HSTs are finally being deployed! I see no reason why Meridians/Voyagers won't go to XC, although I'm sure the DaFT will find some silly use for them that is of no use to anyone... They'll probably deploy the whole fleet on the isle of wight.

According to Modern Railways page 15 of the april 2020 edition:

Glad HSTs are being used, obviously a tad old, etc but if they can meet basic PRM 2020 requirements, then they can help temporarily address major capacity issues.

Not only are they longer, for the services they replace Voyagers on, but they also free up more Voyagers to run in multiple too.

221’s are a good option. 222’s would require modification if you were to work them with the 221’s as they are not compatible. HST’s are going to be in service by the end of the year so expect long trains on some routes.

I doubt 222's would need to run in multiple with 221's anyway. Some of them are 7-car, and others you could probably run in multiple with each other.

Realistically, 2022 seems too soon to start extending Cross Country services beyond their existing network. Extra units should be about lengthening the existing services - maybe even those running Cardiff to Nottingham. Get that right and then think about extending to other destinations.

Yeah, existing services 100% need to be prioritised. Although if capacity and network expansions come hand in hand, due to constraints at certain stations, etc, then it would make some sense.

Last but not least, if services are still crowded, consider for 180s.

No good having extra capacity, if said extra capacity constantly breaks down and blocks the line for other trains, if it leaves the station at all!

Yes, it does. But also the WCML is undeniably the most important piece of railway in the UK.

Can't disagree with that tbh.

 

[JonathanH]

I believe off-lease HSTs are finally being deployed!

Yes, two extra power cars - nothing more. Off-lease HST coaching stock is now making its way to scrapyards, not Doncaster.

 

[Anonymous10]

Yes, two extra power cars - nothing more. Off-lease HST coaching stock is now making its way to scrapyards, not Doncaster.

Should be reusing it with other TOCs as stop gaps

 

[Stephen Lee]

I doubt the case for HS2 has changed much since the apocalypse. Obviously temporarily it will have a massive effect, but almost everything is empty right now!



I believe off-lease HSTs are finally being deployed! I see no reason why Meridians/Voyagers won't go to XC, although I'm sure the DaFT will find some silly use for them that is of no use to anyone... They'll probably deploy the whole fleet on the isle of wight.



Glad HSTs are being used, obviously a tad old, etc but if they can meet basic PRM 2020 requirements, then they can help temporarily address major capacity issues.

Not only are they longer, for the services they replace Voyagers on, but they also free up more Voyagers to run in multiple too.



I doubt 222's would need to run in multiple with 221's anyway. Some of them are 7-car, and others you could probably run in multiple with each other.



Yeah, existing services 100% need to be prioritised. Although if capacity and network expansions come hand in hand, due to constraints at certain stations, etc, then it would make some sense.



No good having extra capacity, if said extra capacity constantly breaks down and blocks the line for other trains, if it leaves the station at all!



Can't disagree with that tbh.

Well.......even you think 180s are quite troublesome......I was wondering where can the 4 180s due to transfer to EMR go after their stopgap career in East Midlands.....

 

[The Ham]

I believe off-lease HSTs are finally being deployed! I see no reason why Meridians/Voyagers won't go to XC, although I'm sure the DaFT will find some silly use for them that is of no use to anyone... They'll probably deploy the whole fleet on the isle of wight.

Deploying the whole fleet to the Isle of Wight would be wasteful, as you can't walk through the end coaches, so you'd have to keep getting off to get from one end of the line to the other!

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Well.......even you think 180s are quite troublesome......I was wondering where can the 4 180s due to transfer to EMR go after their stopgap career in East Midlands.....

Grand Central? After that i don't know.

 

[Jozhua]

Well.......even you think 180s are quite troublesome......I was wondering where can the 4 180s due to transfer to EMR go after their stopgap career in East Midlands.....

Tend not to trust something where the entire fleet is out of service on quite a measurable number of days! Doesn't even happen with pacers or 153's...

In regards to where they can go after EMR, the scrapheap seems appropriate!

Deploying the whole fleet to the Isle of Wight would be wasteful, as you can't walk through the end coaches, so you'd have to keep getting off to get from one end of the line to the other!

Getting rid of end coaches could help, then people can walk from one end of the 50 car train to the other.

Perhaps the DFT can give IOW the remaining 221's as well, then the train wouldn't have to move at all.

 

[swt_passenger]

I would reckon the 20 Avanti 221s
1/2 of them move to Grand Central so as to free up 180s for XC extra capacity, together with the EMR Stopgap 180s when they got replaced by 810s in 2022.
The rest half move to XC with the 180s from GC/EMR.

That’s quite ridiculous. Why would that be better than just adding compatible 221s and very similar 222s to XC directly?

Your idea is a solution without a problem...

 

[JonathanH]

That’s quite ridiculous. Why would that be better than just adding compatible 221s and very similar 222s to XC directly?

Your idea is a solution without a problem...

It looks like the 'problem' that the OP is trying to fix is to not have a fleet of 4 180s on their own, instead having all 14 together. One argument for having 14 180s at Cross Country is that they have slightly more capacity than the Voyager fleet but the lack of servicing facilities on the route that 'know' 180s would be a particular problem. I don't think it is the answer.

 

[Stephen Lee]

That’s quite ridiculous. Why would that be better than just adding compatible 221s and very similar 222s to XC directly?

Your idea is a solution without a problem...

Oh sorry but if i were you i would think of HSTs for Stopgap then 221/222s for long-term. Anyway 222s need modification so as to work in multiple with 220/221s

It looks like the 'problem' that the OP is trying to fix is to not have a fleet of 4 180s on their own, instead having all 14 together. One argument for having 14 180s at Cross Country is that they have slightly more capacity than the Voyager fleet but the lack of servicing facilities on the route that 'know' 180s would be a particular problem. I don't think it is the answer.

So just like what you guys think, 221/222s as long-term and extra HSTs as stopgap

 

[swt_passenger]

Oh sorry but if i were you i would think of HSTs for Stopgap then 221/222s to XC

There’ll be no HST stopgap, as discussed in numerous other threads. You’re going over and over previous discussions...

 

[Stephen Lee]

Oh sorry but if i were you i would think of HSTs for Stopgap then 221/222s to XC


So just like what you guys think, 221/222s as long-term and extra HSTs as stopgap

And for Regional Routes, as i am concerned that lengthen the 170518-523 into 3 cars with Centre cars of 170630-635 may not be enough. Also i knew 12 GTR-SN 171s are due to transfer to EMR and convert to 170s with their carriage configuration change to create 2/3 car unit, but the problem is:
•How many 2 car/3 car units does EMR need?
•If there are surplus 171 centre cars available will it be possible for XC to lengthen 170111-117?

There’ll be no HST stopgap, as discussed in numerous other threads. You’re going over and over previous discussions...

Oh sorry

 

[Whistler40145]

Should XC in the future replace all Voyagers with a fleet of tri-mode Class 800 style units, that are fitted with Pantograph, Diesel Engines and 3rd Rail pickup shoes so that at least when on electrified routes their not wasting use of the infrastructure?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Should XC in the future replace all Voyagers with a fleet of tri-mode Class 800 style units, that are fitted with Pantograph, Diesel Engines and 3rd Rail pickup shoes so that at least when on electrified routes their not wasting use of the infrastructure?

If the third rail can cope then yes, they absolutely should, but that's more of a long-term thing. I'd suggest 7-car units would be a good choice, and use the timetable to up capacity instead of doubling up.

 

[Whistler40145]

If the third rail can cope then yes, they absolutely should, but that's more of a long-term thing. I'd suggest 7-car units would be a good choice, and use the timetable to up capacity instead of doubling up.

Indeed, it was a long term thought

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

If the third rail can cope then yes, they absolutely should, but that's more of a long-term thing. I'd suggest 7-car units would be a good choice, and use the timetable to up capacity instead of doubling up.

I would order maybe 5-car units and 9-car units as well as looking at maybe expanding the network long term.

 

[Whistler40145]

I would order maybe 5-car units and 9-car units as well as looking at maybe expanding the network long term.

Definitely

 

[JonathanH]

If there are surplus 171 centre cars available will it be possible for XC to lengthen 170111-117?

Why would you lengthen them? There are some workings which are scheduled for four car trains - that wouldn't be possible if all 170s were three cars long.

 

[AndrewE]

Should XC in the future replace all Voyagers with a fleet of tri-mode Class 800 style units, that are fitted with Pantograph, Diesel Engines and 3rd Rail pickup shoes so that at least when on electrified routes their not wasting use of the infrastructure?

Except that I can't think of any routes where the third-rail capability is needed, unless we are imagining that they will be going back to Brighton?
Mind you, I agree it makes sense to have the diesel and electric bits working through a DC-compatible base, just in case...