When will Second Generation multiple units start being withdrawn?

[thenorthern]

This may seem a strange question but when will we start seeing the older mark 2 multiple units being withdrawn?

I only ask because some of the units now are 40 years old such as the Class 313s which is much older than most the 1st generation units were but as of yet only the Class 141s and some prototype units have been withdrawn.

During the 1980s and 1990s there was a mass withdrawal of the 1st generation units but there hasn't been the same amount of withdrawal of the current units.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well, the Merseyrail ones only have about 3-5 years to go before becoming aluminium drinks cans.

 

[43096]

This may seem a strange question but when will we start seeing the older mark 2 multiple units being withdrawn?



I only ask because some of the units now are 40 years old such as the Class 313s which is much older than most the 1st generation units were but as of yet only the Class 141s and some prototype units have been withdrawn.



During the 1980s and 1990s there was a mass withdrawal of the 1st generation units but there hasn't been the same amount of withdrawal of the current units.

Mark 2? That's not a term I recognise for the 313-315/507/508 generation. The only mark 2 derived units were classes 310 and 312, and they are long gone.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They are more correctly known as PEP-derived EMUs - they are the second generation but they have nothing to do with the steel-bodied Mk2 coach.

 

[thenorthern]

Mark 2? That's not a term I recognise for the 313-315/507/508 generation. The only mark 2 derived units were classes 310 and 312, and they are long gone.

I generally understand Mark 2 to be Class 139-195 for DMUs and Class 313 onwards for EMUs.

Basically ones with electric doors built from the 1970s onwards.

 

[MK Tom]

I generally understand Mark 2 to be Class 139-195 for DMUs and Class 313 onwards for EMUs.

Basically ones with electric doors built from the 1970s onwards.

No, Mark 2 is a carriage body type that sits between Mark 1 and Mark 3. The Class 310 and 312 units along with the Northern Irish Class 80s used this body in the same way that most first generation DMUs and EMUs used the Mark 1 body. EMUs from Class 317 to 322 used the Mark 3 carriage body.

The 313/508 family used the PEP body as has been said. Lots of units don't use the standard BR carriage bodies.

You might want to use the term 'second generation' for units built between 1970 and privatisation - but don't use "mark 2" to mean a generation or period as this refers to a specific carriage body design.

 

[yorkie]

Mk2 EMUs have all long gone. I suggest you change the thread title to avoid confusion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Railways_Mark_2

Unlike the Mark 1, few multiple unit classes were based on the Mark 2 bodyshell. Most were electric multiple units with British Railways, and which operated under AC using overhead wires. The first of these were Class AM10 in 1966 operating commuter services from London Euston and in the West Midlands. The introduction of TOPS saw these units reclassified Class 310. The other type was Class 312, a derivative of, and almost identical to, the Class 310, introduced in 1975, primarily used on commuter services from London King's Cross and London Liverpool Street, the last slam-door multiple units built for British Railways. Northern Ireland Railways used the Mark 2 bodyshell as the basis for the 80 Class DEMU, which entered service in 1974. Thirteen 5 car electric multiple units were built in 1976 for Taiwan (and withdrawn in 2009): the Taiwan Railway EMU100 series.

 

[thenorthern]

I have made a mistake yes I mean Second Generation rolling stock I have updated to title to reflect this.

 

[D365]

Have several units not been withdrawn already? The ex-London Overground and Southeastern Class 508s are long gone, they're the earliest example that I can think of that wasn't due to accident or fire damage.

 

[Starmill]

Those redundant 321 trailers have been scrapped now haven't they?

I suppose the OP meant to set a criteria for whole units, and not as a result of a crash / fire etc.

Wikipedia reports that 12 full class 508 sets have been scrapped. I have no idea how accurate that is. Presumably this does meet the OP's intended criteria, as they were considered uneconomical to maintain and were displaced by new stock?

Have any 317s gone? Or were some just stored and are now back? I can't really remember.

Also how does the OP consider the scrapping of the small number of 'class 373' sets?

 

[shredder1]

Well, the Merseyrail ones only have about 3-5 years to go before becoming aluminium drinks cans.

That made me smile, I`ll be looking for Mersey Rail icons on my coke cans now.

 

[thenorthern]

Have several units not been withdrawn already? The ex-London Overground and Southeastern Class 508s are long gone, they're the earliest example that I can think of that wasn't due to accident or fire damage.

I think about 15 have been withdrawn yes.

 

[IanXC]

Those redundant 321 trailers have been scrapped now haven't they?

I believe they went for storage in the end. I hesitate to think what use they might ever be put to now...

 

[edwin_m]

I believe they went for storage in the end. I hesitate to think what use they might ever be put to now...

Some New York subway cars were dropped into the Atlantic to make an artificial reef and marine nature reserve...

 

[thenorthern]

I suppose as well given that passenger number have increased dramatically since privatisation new stock its designed to strengthen existing stock rather than replace it.

Looking at old stock as well given that a lot of it contained Asbestos it was a case that it legally had to be withdrawn otherwise they would have to be rebuilt.

 

[mackeral1234]

Those redundant 321 trailers have been scrapped now haven't they?

I suppose the OP meant to set a criteria for whole units, and not as a result of a crash / fire etc.

Wikipedia reports that 12 full class 508 sets have been scrapped. I have no idea how accurate that is. Presumably this does meet the OP's intended criteria, as they were considered uneconomical to maintain and were displaced by new stock?

Have any 317s gone? Or were some just stored and are now back? I can't really remember.

Also how does the OP consider the scrapping of the small number of 'class 373' sets?

Which 321 Trailers

 

[adrock1976]

The trailer coaches that were in 321411-417 that were formerly with London Midland.

These were subsequently refurbished and had the trailer coaches removed, and were reclassified as Class 320s and are now with Scotrail.

 

[bramling]

Those redundant 321 trailers have been scrapped now haven't they?

I suppose the OP meant to set a criteria for whole units, and not as a result of a crash / fire etc.

Wikipedia reports that 12 full class 508 sets have been scrapped. I have no idea how accurate that is. Presumably this does meet the OP's intended criteria, as they were considered uneconomical to maintain and were displaced by new stock?

Have any 317s gone? Or were some just stored and are now back? I can't really remember.

Also how does the OP consider the scrapping of the small number of 'class 373' sets?

Last I heard the 321 trailers are at Long Marston for storage.

12 South Eastern 508s plus 3 London Overground ones have been withdrawn, and most have been scrapped although a few odd vehicles survive in various uses. There's also the Network Rail 313.

No 317s have gone. The only demic may be the prototype rebuilt unit .. anyone able to give an update on that one?

Barring accident casualties these are the only second generation units withdrawn.

 

[thenorthern]

For second generation dmus the Class 141s were of course withdrawn in 1997 but I think that may be down to the fact that they were poorly built and gave a rough ride.

Given that its been 20 years since British Rail withdrew the Class 141s I wonder if they thought the Class 142s would be next and how long they thought the Class 142s would last before ending up before being made into coke cans.

I hope they don't make Class 142s into coke cans however as too much shaking makes it lose its fizz.

 

[Starmill]

I believe they went for storage in the end. I hesitate to think what use they might ever be put to now...

Last I heard the 321 trailers are at Long Marston for storage.

12 South Eastern 508s plus 3 London Overground ones have been withdrawn, and most have been scrapped although a few odd vehicles survive in various uses. There's also the Network Rail 313.

No 317s have gone. The only demic may be the prototype rebuilt unit .. anyone able to give an update on that one?

Barring accident casualties these are the only second generation units withdrawn.

Hmm interesting! Thank you for the updates.

 

[thenorthern]

The Class 460 trains have changed but not fully withdrawn and the Class 442 trains have been withdrawn although they will return to service soon.

Looking at the Connex and South East Trains stock however it makes you realise how bad trains really were in the early 2000s.

 

[D365]

In terms of complete units, excluding accident damage, it seems the conclusion so far is that only a number of Class 508s and Class 373s have been withdrawn and scrapped*.

(*I included electrics only because I thought OP was asking about second gen EMUs specifically)

 

[thenorthern]

What is happening with the Class 144 trains are they still going to be withdrawn in 2020?

 

[43096]

What is happening with the Class 144 trains are they still going to be withdrawn in 2020?

It will be before 2020. Anything without PRM work (all 144s except 144012) has to be modified to be compliant or be out of service by 31/12/19.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

There was a lot of asbestos-insulated stock around in the 1980s and it either had to be withdrawn or the asbestos removed by the end of 1987 hence the mass withdrawals of a lot of Mk1-derivative stock.

A lot of stock had it removed and many units refurbished as part of classified overhauls and even the scrapped stock had to have it removed before incineration

 

[edwin_m]

There was a lot of asbestos-insulated stock around in the 1980s and it either had to be withdrawn or the asbestos removed by the end of 1987 hence the mass withdrawals of a lot of Mk1-derivative stock.

A lot of stock had it removed and many units refurbished as part of classified overhauls and even the scrapped stock had to have it removed before incineration

The remaining first-generation stock, mainly DC EMUs, was replaced at around the turn of the century and this was triggered by the upcoming ban on stock with Mk1 bodyshells (less crashworthy than newer designs) and slam doors.