When will Northern fix automated announcements stating the wrong next station?

[TUC]

Several years into their new trains being introduced, there is still a problem which risks both visually impaired passengers and those unfamiliar with the route ending up at the wrong station.

Om the Leeds-Manchester Victoria service this evening, the automated announcement and screen declared that the next station was Low Moor. I checked with my wife as I was sure we have not yet travelled through Bradford, and she agreed that was the case.

I realised the problem, as has been the situation on multiple journeys over the past few years, lies in the long approach into Bradford Interchange, which is then reversed out from after departure. The system seems incapable of differentiating when the train is near Low Moor, but actually on the approach to Bradford, and when it is actually approaching Low Moor after leaving Bradford.

Even where services do not stop at Low Moor, the same problem occurs with Halifax being incorrectly announced when approaching Bradford.

Surely the system should be capable of dealing with services that reverse en route?

 

[WY Bus Spotter]

I have noticed there is frequently also a mix up between Bradford Interchange and New Pudsey announcements, leading to some very confused passengers who might not be familiar with the route. It even confuses me if it's dark out and I'm half asleep.

It's certainly no good for passengers who rely on the announcements as you say.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

as has been the situation on multiple journeys over the past few years

is it a consistent issue among the whole fleet, or is it just occasional?

 

[Halish Railway]

Supposedly the server that supports Northern's PIS is completely broken, hence these issues and the announcements SHOUTING STATIONS WITH A NAME BEGINNING WITH A W. Let's hope that this quite severe accessibility issue's remedy doesn't fall victim to any cost-cutting.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

SHOUTING STATIONS WITH A NAME BEGINNING WITH A W

I never figured it was anything with a W since, there's not a lot of stations with a W, the only one I'd heard was WIGAN NORTH WESTERN.
Although that still doesn't really explain why all the W's are louder, just that they all are.

 

[johntea]

It'll probably be fixed about the same time as the above mentioned WONDERFULLY LOUD W STATION ANNOUNCEMENTS, in other words never...it really is baffling as to why they can't get such issues sorted out by now!

 

[skyhigh]

It'll probably be fixed about the same time as the above mentioned WONDERFULLY LOUD W STATION ANNOUNCEMENTS, in other words never...it really is baffling as to why they can't get such issues sorted out by now!

The short answer is CAF.

 

[Twingo37175]

I never figured it was anything with a W since, there's not a lot of stations with a W, the only one I'd heard was WIGAN NORTH WESTERN.
Although that still doesn't really explain why all the W's are louder, just that they all are.

There was me thinking WAKEFIELD WESTGATE was unique in being shouted.

 

[Neptune]

The short answer is CAF.

Can you expand on that or is it a statement with no basis?

 

[a1904]

Supposedly the server that supports Northern's PIS is completely broken, hence these issues and the announcements SHOUTING STATIONS WITH A NAME BEGINNING WITH A W. Let's hope that this quite severe accessibility issue's remedy doesn't fall victim to any cost-cutting.

They fixed it now but I swear they also had versions of Leeds that either had a very short E or the longest E imaginable

Transpennine also got a similar issue whenever they do an extra stop in Dewsbury - they will just keep announcing that the next stop is Dewsbury over and over again after already left.

I've always gotten off at Leeds when that happened but I wouldn't be surprised if it kept going on further than that.

 

[Harpers Tate]

There appears to be little or no recognition in the industry (and it's probably true of others) that information that is absolutely wrong "only n% of the time" is NOT better than no information at all. It isn't. Whilst it may involve some human intervention, it would seem better to me that, as soon as any inaccuracy is detected, the system (realtime display, announcement, whatever) is simply switched off until it can be fixed. If such an action is not provided for in the equipment, then that's a (further) design flaw.

Ever since their introduction (IIRC), the EMUs used on the Wharfedale line have had a particular announcement worded and timed badly. At Guiseley (for example) the thing will announce
"This is the Leeds train. The next station is Leeds where this service terminates. Please alight here." This will happen while the train is stopped and the doors open at Guiseley, with Leeds some 10-15 minutes away. Here has a very specific meaning. It means HERE. In 20 years or so, that arrangement and script has not changed to my recollection. It has remained misleading to anyone unfamiliar for that period. So, to answer the question asked - let's say I wouldn't hold my breath.

 

[Neptune]

There appears to be little or no recognition in the industry (and it's probably true of others) that information that is absolutely wrong "only n% of the time" is NOT better than no information at all. It isn't. Whilst it may involve some human intervention, it would seem better to me that, as soon as any inaccuracy is detected, the system (realtime display, announcement, whatever) is simply switched off until it can be fixed. If such an action is not provided for in the equipment, then that's a (further) design flaw.

Ever since their introduction (IIRC), the EMUs used on the Wharfedale line have had a particular announcement worded and timed badly. At Guiseley (for example) the thing will announce
"This is the Leeds train. The next station is Leeds where this service terminates. Please alight here." This will happen while the train is stopped and the doors open at Guiseley, with Leeds some 10-15 minutes away. Here has a very specific meaning. It means HERE. In 20 years or so, that arrangement and script has not changed to my recollection. It has remained misleading to anyone unfamiliar for that period. So, to answer the question asked - let's say I wouldn't hold my breath.

Also in the 22 years the 333’s have been in service I have never known anyone get off in error at Guiseley, Shipley, Frizinghall, Cononley or Ben Rhydding due to this. I’m not saying it has never happened but it certainly didn’t happen to me in the 20+ years that I worked these units.

 

[TUC]

There appears to be little or no recognition in the industry (and it's probably true of others) that information that is absolutely wrong "only n% of the time" is NOT better than no information at all. It isn't. Whilst it may involve some human intervention, it would seem better to me that, as soon as any inaccuracy is detected, the system (realtime display, announcement, whatever) is simply switched off until it can be fixed. If such an action is not provided for in the equipment, then that's a (further) design flaw.

Ever since their introduction (IIRC), the EMUs used on the Wharfedale line have had a particular announcement worded and timed badly. At Guiseley (for example) the thing will announce
"This is the Leeds train. The next station is Leeds where this service terminates. Please alight here." This will happen while the train is stopped and the doors open at Guiseley, with Leeds some 10-15 minutes away. Here has a very specific meaning. It means HERE. In 20 years or so, that arrangement and script has not changed to my recollection. It has remained misleading to anyone unfamiliar for that period. So, to answer the question asked - let's say I wouldn't hold my breath.

It depends whether you mean switching off the incorrect announcements for that station or switching off the whole PIS. If it is the latter, who's willing to be that Northern are too disorganised to ever get it switched back on? The real question for Northern is why, on multiple issues, are you so lacking in focus to get issues like this fixed quickly, whether or not they're the responsibility of Northetn or the train manufacturers? They're part of the day job. Just get it done.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Feb 2023 ==

Also in the 22 years the 333’s have been in service I have never known anyone get off in error at Guiseley, Shipley, Frizinghall, Cononley or Ben Rhydding due to this. I’m not saying it has never happened but it certainly didn’t happen to me in the 20+ years that I worked these units.

Perhaps it's partly because visually impaired passengers have noticed the announcements don't fit the right sequence and have had to quickly and worriedly ask other passengers which station they're at. That's not good enough.

 

[yorkie]

Can you expand on that or is it a statement with no basis?

CAF have a reputation for being cheap and of poor quality (they are the opposite of Stadler)

 

[TUC]

The short answer is CAF.

Even if they were the case, it is still down to the TOC to consistently enforce their contract with CAF.

 

[Neptune]

Perhaps it's partly because visually impaired passengers have noticed the announcements don't fit the right sequence and have had to quickly and worriedly ask other passengers which station they're at. That's not good enough.

Have you reported the problem to Northern at all in the past 22 years the 333’s have operated? I do hope so as you’ve picked up on a major issue that everyone else has missed.

CAF have a reputation for being cheap and of poor quality (they are the opposite of Stadler)

So there is no basis. Just lazy assumptions without any substance to back it up.

 

[TUC]

Have you reported the problem to Northern at all in the past 22 years the 333’s have operated? I do hope so as you’ve picked up on a major issue that everyone else has missed.

My OP was not about the 333s. I was answering a separate post above, although I do hope in either case staff would notice and report such issues and Northern would quickly fix them, rather than priorities being determined upon whether anyone has complained.

 

[Neptune]

My OP was not about the 333s. I was answering a separate post above, although I do hope in either case staff would notice and report such issues and Northern would quickly fix them, rather than priorities being determined upon whether anyone has complained.

Well, as I was clearly discussing 333’s in reply to a post by a different poster and naturally assumed that as you joined that particular part of the discussion quoting what I said about them then that is what you were referring to.

My mistake.

 

[scragend]

There was me thinking WAKEFIELD WESTGATE was unique in being shouted.

Not a W but the one that bugs me is "Manchester Oxford ROOOAD".

 

[Halish Railway]

There was me thinking WAKEFIELD WESTGATE was unique in being shouted.

Try going on a Leeds to Lincoln service, where you have WAKEFIELD KIRKGATE, WOODHOUSE and WORKSOP.

 

[ricoblade]

Supposedly the server that supports Northern's PIS is completely broken, hence these issues and the announcements SHOUTING STATIONS WITH A NAME BEGINNING WITH A W. Let's hope that this quite severe accessibility issue's remedy doesn't fall victim to any cost-cutting.

Haha - I mentioned on another thread that WORKSOP gets shouted on the Sheffield to Lincoln line but last time I travelled, WOODHOUSE was the same.

 

[Urobach]

I never figured it was anything with a W since, there's not a lot of stations with a W, the only one I'd heard was WIGAN NORTH WESTERN.

Neither had I as KIRKHAM AND WESHAM gets shouted too (WOODSMOOR being the only other station I'd heard being shouted, which fits)

 

[YorksLad12]

Ever since their introduction (IIRC), the EMUs used on the Wharfedale line have had a particular announcement worded and timed badly. At Guiseley (for example) the thing will announce
"This is the Leeds train. The next station is Leeds where this service terminates. Please alight here." This will happen while the train is stopped and the doors open at Guiseley, with Leeds some 10-15 minutes away. Here has a very specific meaning. It means HERE. In 20 years or so, that arrangement and script has not changed to my recollection. It has remained misleading to anyone unfamiliar for that period. So, to answer the question asked - let's say I wouldn't hold my breath.

The audio announcements couldn't be changed (in 2016, last time I was involved), which is why the conductor-guard had to manually announce on trains that called at Kirkstall Forge and Apperley Bridge. I too have hated that "here", it should be "there" when at Guiseley and "here" on the apprauch to Leeds.

Slightly off-topic, but I've caught more than a few buses in Leeds that announce their next stop, the announcements bearing no relationship to what appears on the screen, which is the actual name of the stop as printed on the stop flag and held in NaPTAN. It's like no-one cares enough to test these things.

 

[TUC]

To get back to the subject of the OP, I'd rather have stations slightly mispronounced than the wrong station announced.

 

[ASharpe]

I've heard a few announcements recently on departure from Apperly Bridge that my train would be calling at "and Leeds" on trains that skip Kirkstall Forge.

At shipley I think it might be related to delayed door release on the platform 2 curve that causes the announcements to sound a bit daft.

 

[Halish Railway]

I've heard a few announcements recently on departure from Apperly Bridge that my train would be calling at "and Leeds" on trains that skip Kirkstall Forge.

I’ve had this issue with 331s on Ilkley to Leeds trains whilst at Guiseley as well.

 

[MichaelTrains]

CAF have a reputation for being cheap and of poor quality (they are the opposite of Stadler)

Probably why a number of Northern drivers and guards call them “cheap as ####” units.

The 195s aren't the best units. The sharp breaking issues are still a problem.

 

[sheff1]

is it a consistent issue among the whole fleet, or is it just occasional?

I as far as I recall it has been the case every time I have travelled to Bradford Interchange on a train with auto announcements in the last couple of years. No idea what actual type of train they were though.

 

[a_c_skinner]

(Puts aside his map and crayons)

I find the inability to announce stations correctly inexplicable. I've had it on other operators too. My mobile phone is currently telling me which way it is facing to within a few degrees and where it is to within 10m. Stations don't move and so the only complication is telling the train if you are booked to stop at each station. This isn't like automated ticket machines which have to live in a hostile environment and untrained operators, it is systems in a safe place and trained users.

I'm not a railway person, a passenger. I'm now going back to crayoning my plans for HS5 on a map of Sodor. However the inability to do this simple task reliably is difficult to understand.

Yours faithfully

Mr T Tank-Engine

 

[skyhigh]

Can you expand on that or is it a statement with no basis?

Yes, I can expand on this.

A CAF applied software update effectively knackered the PIS component of the 331/195s, which resulted in some falling back to the originally installed software (along with mispronunciations such as Frizzinghall, bringing back 'Northern Rail' and 'Northern by arriva' branding). This also broke the remote software update facility so the trains had to be done physically by CAF on depot.

The fix for this incident also introduced a few other bugs, such as the loud W stations. But CAF are dragging their heels on a further update, given the problems the last one caused.

Northern are unable to adjust the volume themselves, it has to go through CAF. And they have been pushing CAF pretty hard (who in turn have probably passed it on to Televic who supplied the system)...