When Will It All Go Wrong For The Tories/ Johnson?

[DynamicSpirit]

Kemi Badenoch - Another never heard of, running on cutting taxes and spending and despite being Nigerian apparently known for being anti-woke and pushing race/class/sex war rhetoric in same way as US Republicans- so naturally Boris made her equalities minister.

Why do you say, known for being anti-woke despite being Nigerian? Is there some rule that says that people from ethnic minorities can't be against identity politics?

And while I agree she's anti-woke (one reason why I like her btw), I'm not aware of her pushing race/class/sex war rhetoric. What on Earth do 'race war' and 'sex war' mean? Can you substantiate? I'm familiar with class war rhetoric, but in my experience that usually comes from Labour and the left, not the right.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Jul 2022 ==

What a vile person that Andrea Jenkyns seems to be.

That sounds quite a judgement. Do you know her personally?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jul 2022 ==

I lost my permanent job last August and despite nearly 2000 job applications, I found that the jobs market in Leeds and Bradford is almost non-existent.

I found out this week that I lose my temporary job in the autumn, due to direct government meddling, when the worst of the fuel prices and I am really really scared about what will happen then. Last winter I was down to wearing 5 layers of clothing and one tin of spaghetti per day and I am really worried that this might seem like a distant luxury.

Very sorry to hear that. That sounds very tough Hope something comes up for you (Though I realise that may sound like an empty platitude, and me saying that is of zero practical help)

I have tried learning new skills such as Python programming language, yet the apparent demand for this is not there in my experience.

That does sound like a very good thing to do. FWIW my understanding (as a software developer) is that there is huge demand for developers at the moment. I suspect your problem there may be that the demand tends to be in London. And also it can be hard to break into if you don't already have professional experience.

 

[GusB]

Is there some rule that says that people from ethnic minorities can't be against identity politics?

Well, yes. It's a bit hypocritical if people from your own background are struggling and you then turn round and say "well, I made it". It's pulling the ladder up behind you.

That sounds quite a judgement. Do you know her personally?

You don't have to know someone personally to know that they're a vile person.

 

[WatcherZero]

Why do you say, known for being anti-woke despite being Nigerian? Is there some rule that says that people from ethnic minorities can't be against identity politics?

And while I agree she's anti-woke (one reason why I like her btw), I'm not aware of her pushing race/class/sex war rhetoric. What on Earth do 'race war' and 'sex war' mean? Can you substantiate? I'm familiar with class war rhetoric, but in my experience that usually comes from Labour and the left, not the right.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Jul 2022 ==

Well to give you a couple of quotes from her:

“I don’t care about colonialism because know what we were doing before colonialism got there. They came in and just made a different bunch of winners and losers.

“There was never any concept of ‘rights’, so [the] people who lost out were old elites not everyday people.”

You can also read how she laid into a professor of critical race theory on a discussion panel without even reading what critical race theory was.

‘I Don’t Care About Colonialism’: Read UK Equalities Minister’s Leaked WhatsApps

In a series of WhatsApp messages obtained by VICE World News, Kemi Badenoch dismissed the impact of colonialism and mocked Black public figures in the UK.

www.vice.com

And her record as Equalities Minister reviewed:

She boycotted the Gender and Equalities Committee review into the Reform of the Gender Recognition Act, in essence refusing to engage in the passage of her departments own bill after earlier prompting a mass resignation from the Committee.
Allowed herself to be lobbied by The LGB Alliance (A group that wants to ban sex changes as they believe gay people should stay the gender they are born as, they believe if Lesbians have the option of becoming Men then Lesbians will become extinct).
Activley reached out to an Irish faith group promoting Conversion Therapy.

Kemi Badenoch launches Tory leadership bid despite ‘utterly failing’ LGBTQ+ people

Former equalities minister Kemi Badenoch has launched her Conservative Party leadership campaign despite her 'utterly failing' LGBTQ+ people.

www.pinknews.co.uk

 

[J-2739]

Well, yes. It's a bit hypocritical if people from your own background are struggling and you then turn round and say "well, I made it". It's pulling the ladder up behind you.

What does that have to do with identity politics?

 

[GusB]

What does that have to do with identity politics?

Rather a lot.

 

[AlterEgo]

Well, yes. It's a bit hypocritical if people from your own background are struggling and you then turn round and say "well, I made it". It's pulling the ladder up behind you.

Are people not perhaps a bit more than their race or sex?

Why do black people who claim that racism in Britain is not as bad as some say, held to a different standard to white people? Can’t they just think that on its own merits and let people disagree and provide evidence if that’s not the case?

 

[J-2739]

Are people not perhaps a bit more than their race or sex?

Why do black people who claim that racism in Britain is not as bad as some say, held to a different standard to white people? Can’t they just think that on its own merits and let people disagree and provide evidence if that’s not the case?

Exactly. Thank you. We are not just some homogenous mass that are to be used time to time by people with vested interests to justify their viewpoints, which are way too often far from the realities.

 

[317 forever]

I expect the chosen Tory leader to be a Brexiteer. Rishi is even though he has rarely spoken about Europe. Grant voted Remain and would probably not get elected by the members at least. Liz and Jeremy voted Remain as, I think, did Sajid.

I don't know how everyone voted and, even if I did, there are now too many candidates to list them all.

It is a pity that Ben is not standing. It has been speculated that, for all his talk of putting continuity of the defence of the UK first - and genuine that he probably is, he may also be putting defence of his prospects of becoming NATO General Secretary first.

 

[birchesgreen]

Its pretty disturbing that how someone voted for something over 5 years ago still taints them in the eyes of many.

 

[najaB]

It is a pity that Ben is not standing. It has been speculated that, for all his talk of putting continuity of the defence of the UK first - and genuine that he probably is, he may also be putting defence of his prospects of becoming NATO General Secretary first.

Or, alternatively, he doesn't want the job. And given what a fractious lot the Tories are, I can't say I blame him!

 

[The Ham]

Its pretty disturbing that how someone voted for something over 5 years ago still taints them in the eyes of many.

Although not a surprise given the view of some on the Lib Dems during their time in coalition which is further back. There's likely to be other examples further back too.

 

[daodao]

The competition to seek a replacement for Bojo now seems to have a clear favourite (Sunak), but he is almost a billionaire and his (and his wife's) tax affairs are dubious; his wife is the daughter of an oligarch and I don't see how he would retain the "red wall" vote. He appears to have behaved like Brutus in dispatching Bojo.

The alternative candidate likely to be put to the Tory membership is unclear. It really ought to be someone with cabinet experience, preferably in one of the 3 "great" offices of state, which should put Truss in pole position. She is also an Oxford graduate, the traditional university for PMs to have attended, and read PPE there. Hunt is yesterday's man, and probably can't be trusted not to roll back Brexit. Unfortunately, Javid appears to have little support and to be a poor public speaker.

I don't understand the support for the inexperienced Mordaunt, who has some bizarre views and doesn't currently appear to have a partner to support her (desirable given the stresses of being PM). She and some of the other candidates (e.g. Tugendhat, warmonger and nephew of a Europhile former EU commissioner) appear to be somewhat arrogant in putting their names forward, given their previous relatively low profile and lack of ministerial experience. The less said about "Michael Green", the better.

 

[Falcon1200]

What a vile person that Andrea Jenkyns seems to be. She shouldn’t be let anywhere near education after behaving like that.

Andrea Jenkyns is vile, I agree. (Here's what I think of you, she's saying.)

If those opinions are based solely on her reaction to people shouting at her, would it not be instructive to know exactly what they were saying ? Because some pretty vile insults are regularly hurled at politicians; The National newspaper on Facebook today features a performer at the TRNSMT music festival in Glasgow leading the crowd in a chant of 'f*ck the Tories'. But perhaps that's acceptable as it was directed at Conservatives ?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

You don't have to know someone personally to know that they're a vile person.

Really? I would say the opposite. If you don't know someone personally, then you probably have almost no idea what their life experiences are, and therefore what would have lead them to hold the beliefs that they hold. You also have no idea (other than what little you can glean from 2nd-hand media reports), what kind of person they are in real life, you have no experience of how they treat their friends and colleagues. There's no way you can judge, based on so little knowledge of someone else, that they are 'vile'.

Maybe if a person has a history of getting involved in organised crime, beating other people up or treating other people really badly, etc. etc., then you could legitimately conclude they are 'vile' without knowing them personally, but I'm pretty sure no-one is accusing Andrea Leadsom of that. The post I was replying to stated that Andrea Leadsom was vile without making any particular allegations. The only context in this thread seems to have been a statement that she is supporting Penny Mordaunt for Tory leader. Do you really think it's OK to judge someone as 'vile' based on who they are planning to vote for in a leadership election?

(To be clear, I'm pretty sure I'd strongly disagree with Andrea Leadsom on a huge number of issues, and I'm very glad that, 6 years ago, she didn't become Tory leader. But there's no way I would judge someone as 'vile' just because they have different opinions from me.)

 

[nw1]

Starmer is still slimy, smarmy and smug. Wouldn’t trust him.

And many Tories aren't?

 

[Phil56]

Or, alternatively, he doesn't want the job. And given what a fractious lot the Tories are, I can't say I blame him!

I think all major parties struggle to get the right type of leader. Trouble is that their personal lives are scrutinised by the media and "normal" people just don't want that. The job of party leader (and ultimately PM) really needs a kind of person with the right kind of personality who just doesn't care, i.e. of the Boris mould! Just look at the hatchet job the media did on Tim Farron when he become Libdem leader just because he had Christian values. He's a brilliant/committed MP for his constituency and would have made a good LibDem leader had he been allowed to do so for more than a few weeks.

 

[nw1]

Really? I would say the opposite. If you don't know someone personally, then you probably have almost no idea what their life experiences are, and therefore what would have lead them to hold the beliefs that they hold. You also have no idea (other than what little you can glean from 2nd-hand media reports), what kind of person they are in real life, you have no experience of how they treat their friends and colleagues. There's no way you can judge, based on so little knowledge of someone else, that they are 'vile'.

Maybe if a person has a history of getting involved in organised crime, beating other people up or treating other people really badly, etc. etc., then you could legitimately conclude they are 'vile' without knowing them personally, but I'm pretty sure no-one is accusing Andrea Leadsom of that. The post I was replying to stated that Andrea Leadsom was vile without making any particular allegations. The only context in this thread seems to have been a statement that she is supporting Penny Mordaunt for Tory leader. Do you really think it's OK to judge someone as 'vile' based on who they are planning to vote for in a leadership election?

Leadsom said, if I remember right, that May was not the best choice to be PM because she didn't have children.

Maybe 'vile' is a bit strong, but, anyone with such bigoted, prejudiced views should be nowhere near power. What's shocking is that her constituency have considered her appropriate to be their MP not once, but twice, since she made these comments.

Imagine if Leadsom had made equivalent comments about a black, gay, Muslim or Jewish candidate?

 

[AlterEgo]

I think all major parties struggle to get the right type of leader. Trouble is that their personal lives are scrutinised by the media and "normal" people just don't want that. The job of party leader (and ultimately PM) really needs a kind of person with the right kind of personality who just doesn't care, i.e. of the Boris mould!

Yes, Boris’ complete lack of consideration for what others think was really successful (!)

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Leadsom said, if I remember right, that May was not the best choice to be PM because she didn't have children.

Maybe 'vile' is a bit strong, but, anyone with such bigoted, prejudiced views should be nowhere near power. What's shocking is that her constituency have considered her appropriate to be their MP not once, but twice, since she made these comments.

Imagine if Leadsom had made equivalent comments about a black, gay, Muslim or Jewish candidate?

She did say something like that. More precisely she said this:

• Interviewer: During the debates you repeatedly said as a mum. Do you feel like a mum in politics?
• Leadsom: "Yes. I am sure Theresa will be really sad she doesn't have children so I don't want this to be 'Andrea has children, Theresa hasn't' because I think that would be really horrible but genuinely I feel that being a mum means you have a very real stake in the future of our country, a tangible stake. She possibly has nieces, nephews, lots of people, but I have children who are going to have children who will directly be a part of what happens next."

It was a totally crass thing to say, and Andrea Leadsom subsequently apologised for it, but I can't see anything in that statement that would justify labelling her as 'bigoted' or 'prejudiced'. It's rather obviously a comment that came out totally the wrong way - something that I would imagine has happened to just about everyone on the planet.

 

[nw1]

The alternative candidate likely to be put to the Tory membership is unclear. It really ought to be someone with cabinet experience, preferably in one of the 3 "great" offices of state, which should put Truss in pole position. She is also an Oxford graduate, the traditional university for PMs to have attended, and read PPE there.

I wouldn't consider her being an Oxford PPE graduate neither here nor there. Not a virtue, certainly (not a vice, admittedly, either).

Hunt is yesterday's man, and probably can't be trusted not to roll back Brexit.

Why is he yesterday's man? And if Hunt "rolls back" (i.e softens, presumably) Brexit, some of us think that's good. Brexit has made some aspects of my life very difficult. The good thing about Hunt (and I don't particularly like him overall, I'd more consider him 'the best of a bad lot' along with a certain Mrs T. May) is he is not a Brexit worshipper who wants to indulge in some pathetic cold war with the EU.

Unfortunately, Javid appears to have little support and to be a poor public speaker.

Javid is another who seems to be relatively moderate in some ways, I will admit that.

I don't understand the support for the inexperienced Mordaunt, who has some bizarre views and doesn't currently appear to have a partner to support her (desirable given the stresses of being PM). She and some of the other candidates (e.g. Tugendhat, warmonger and nephew of a Europhile former EU commissioner)

Again, so what? Don't know much about Tugendhat but one might guess he's another moderate.

Surely it's better to have a PM which appeals to the population as a whole rather than hardcore Brexiters and hard-right-wingers? Time the PM listens to the rest of us rather than pretending we don't exist, as Johnson has done.

 

[birchesgreen]

Surely it's better to have a PM which appeals to the population as a whole rather than hardcore Brexiters and hard-right-wingers? Time the PM listens to the rest of us rather than pretending we don't exist, as Johnson has done.

Well depends on who you support surely. If you are a Labour supporter you might want a completely unelectable fruit cake as Tory leader.

Personally i'd like Javid, he seems fairly human compared to some of the others.

 

[nw1]

I expect the chosen Tory leader to be a Brexiteer. Rishi is even though he has rarely spoken about Europe. Grant voted Remain and would probably not get elected by the members at least. Liz and Jeremy voted Remain as, I think, did Sajid.

That would be a mistake if they want to appeal to the population as a whole.
Needs to be someone neutral, at least, on the matter, if they do not want to prolong the pro/anti-EU divide - which would suggest either Hunt, Shapps or Javid (not sure about the others).

Not a fan of Truss due to "Britannia Unchained" as I've mentioned several times before; co-authors P.Patel and D.Raab.

 

[daodao]

Surely it's better to have a PM which appeals to the population as a whole rather than hardcore Brexiters and hard-right-wingers? Time the PM listens to the rest of us rather than pretending we don't exist, as Johnson has done.

This isn't a general election. The electorate in the final round is the Tory party membership. I was merely assessing the chances of the runners and riders from the likely perspective of that electorate. If Truss gets to the final round, and she has a good chance of doing so, then she has a very good chance of winning. She is not my personal choice, but then I don't have a vote in this contest.

 

[nw1]

Well depends on who you support surely. If you are a Labour supporter you might want a completely unelectable fruit cake as Tory leader.

Know what you mean. Maybe I should start suggesting Fabricant for PM.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jul 2022 ==

This isn't a general election. The electorate in the final round is the Tory party membership. I was merely assessing the chances of the runners and riders from the likely perspective of that electorate.

OK, fair enough, sorry if I misunderstood.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I think all major parties struggle to get the right type of leader. Trouble is that their personal lives are scrutinised by the media and "normal" people just don't want that. The job of party leader (and ultimately PM) really needs a kind of person with the right kind of personality who just doesn't care, i.e. of the Boris mould! Just look at the hatchet job the media did on Tim Farron when he become Libdem leader just because he had Christian values. He's a brilliant/committed MP for his constituency and would have made a good LibDem leader had he been allowed to do so for more than a few weeks.

The media need to look inwards on themselves and to be aware of the Biblical saying..."Let him who is without sin be the first to cast the stone".

The saga of the News of the World should have taught them that lesson.

 

[philosopher]

Or, alternatively, he doesn't want the job. And given what a fractious lot the Tories are, I can't say I blame him!

Ben Wallace did strike me as the best potential candidate with a realistic chance of winning, so it is shame he decided not to run. Hunt and Tugendhat seem reasonable, but as they were quite publicly pro remain, I just can’t see the Tory members voting for them.

It does now seem a case of whom is the least worst option.

 

[Yew]

Ben Wallace did strike me as the best potential candidate with a realistic chance of winning, so it is shame he decided not to run. Hunt and Tugendhat seem reasonable, but as they were quite publicly pro remain, I just can’t see the Tory members voting for them.

I've never been quite sure how Brexity actual members of the party are, or if it was just something reluctantly embraced to counter losing votes to Farrage.

 

[wireforever]

Vacancy leader of tory party previous candidates need not apply .There appears to be no urgency to fill the post if Boris wants to stay in post till October at the last count 9 candidates have come forward like a ballot paper in a by election when will it end the country deserves better

 

[najaB]

There appears to be no urgency to fill the post if Boris wants to stay in post till October

Boris wants to, but the party want him gone sooner that that. The longer he sticks around the more the stink gets to stick to all of them.

 

[AM9]

I've never been quite sure how Brexity actual members of the party are, or if it was just something reluctantly embraced to counter losing votes to Farrage.

... and in 2019, Corbyn.