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When Will It All Go Wrong For The Tories/ Johnson?

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Xenophon PCDGS

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An unfortunate side-effect of recent postings in relation to national party issues to the local elections on 5th May is "tarring with the same brush" syndrome and a well-respected local councillor with much good works for their local community could find themselves not being elected.

Has anyone any views on this particular matter?
 
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jfollows

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Has anyone any views on this particular matter?
If you represent the Conservative party then you represent its leader and all he stands for, in addition to local issues. If you don't like the baggage, become an independent, not least because that's been reasonably successful in our area and others - probably better in suburbia than in city centres or country wards though.

The only way out of this is to remove national parties from local elections, and that's not going to happen.

EDIT And don't forget that this hypothetical "well-respected" councillor usually votes along party lines as a price to pay for being on a party ticket. So he/she is doing the bidding of the party most of the time anyway. So the "guilt" is by more than association.
 
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JamesT

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The question I have is "what internet connection was be using?"

If Wifi, then why does the Houses of Parliament not have filters to stop access to unethical material (such as Porn), most work places would. However, even if they don't given that it's possible for you to be found out then if you accidentally went to the wrong site the thing to do is instantly close the site and go and confess that it was an error.
I’ve seen people saying on social media that the WiFi there does have filters, but as he was on a phone then he could have been using the mobile connection which is likely to be unfiltered.
 

jfollows

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Kwasi Kwarteng told Sky that the problem was caused by people having to work too hard (I paraphrase):
“I think the problem we have is that people are working in a really intense environment. There are long hours, and I think generally, most people know their limits, they know how to act respectfully.

“But there are some instances where people don’t, frankly, act according to the highest standards.”
That's pathetic and insulting to the millions of people who work in other hard "intense" environments and always behave properly.

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============
On the subject of "inappropriate behaviour", I worked once with someone in the public sector who was sacked for it. I don't have the facts or proof, but the information I do have leads me to believe that he once did "something inappropriate" and was hauled before the (entirely male) senior management at the time who decided to record the circumstances and put him on warning never to do it again. After I'd left, my understanding is that he did "do it again" and this time the completely new management team sacked him on the spot.
Now this seems to me the correct way to go about things. I have no idea of the "mitigating circumstances" behind the first event which didn't cause him to be sacked then, but I presume there were some and it wasn't brushed under the carpet and forgotten about. Also the point that we need to be tolerant - to some extent - that we're all human and make mistakes. Doing "it" again was inexcusable of course.
Every organisation will handle this sort of thing differently, but I think most organisations nowadays are reasonably good in handling this things. Just not the House of Commons, yet anyway.
 
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nw1

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With the 2019 result having been 60% for him and a divided opposition, it would be tough for another party to win. Still, with sufficient tactical voting and say a 15% swing it could still happen.

Of course Crown Steward and Bailiff Paterson got almost 63% of the vote in 2019 with a similarly divided opposition and the Lib Dems third. https://electionresults.parliament.uk/election/2019-12-12/Results/Location/Constituency/North Shropshire/

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Kwasi Kwarteng told Sky that the problem was caused by people having to work too hard (I paraphrase):
Given that Kwarteng is one of the "Britannia Unchained" lot (see also: Patel, Raab, Truss) who seemed to consider British workers as lazy, good-for-nothing shirkers, that's a bit rich from him.
An unfortunate side-effect of recent postings in relation to national party issues to the local elections on 5th May is "tarring with the same brush" syndrome and a well-respected local councillor with much good works for their local community could find themselves not being elected.

Has anyone any views on this particular matter?

The well-respected local councillor could always stand as an Independent. While it (sadly IMO) didn't work for Messrs. Grieve and Gauke in 2019, in these local elections it might be another matter.
 
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Gloster

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According to the Sunday Times (although it came to me via my Yahoo news feed, so I haven’t seen the original article) there are more stories likely to come out, including one Minister having had noisy sex in his office (which I see as inconsiderate, rather than scandalous), another has been warned about regular use of prostitues and an MP sent a photo of his genitals to a female colleague (*). It is beginning to become a bit of a soap opera, but it is the damaging effect on the general faith in the system that worries me: people will become so fed up that they start voting for people who manage to appear to be decent, clean-cut candidates, but whose policies are extreme to one side or another.

(* - We all knew he was a p***k, but he didn’t need to prove it.)
 

Acfb

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Of course Crown Steward and Bailiff Paterson got almost 63% of the vote in 2019 with a similarly divided opposition and the Lib Dems third. https://electionresults.parliament.uk/election/2019-12-12/Results/Location/Constituency/North Shropshire/

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Given that Kwarteng is one of the "Britannia Unchained" lot (see also: Patel, Raab, Truss) who seemed to consider British workers as lazy, good-for-nothing shirkers, that's a bit rich from him.


The well-respected local councillor could always stand as an Independent. While it (sadly IMO) didn't work for Messrs. Grieve and Gauke in 2019, in these local elections it might be another matter.

An independent, Claire Wright did very well next door in East Devon constituency in 2015, 2017 and 2019 when she even got over 40% but she seems to have retired her candidacy now. I think she initially benefitted from a backlash against the former Tory MP Hugo Swire.
 

brad465

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According to the Sunday Times (although it came to me via my Yahoo news feed, so I haven’t seen the original article) there are more stories likely to come out, including one Minister having had noisy sex in his office (which I see as inconsiderate, rather than scandalous), another has been warned about regular use of prostitues and an MP sent a photo of his genitals to a female colleague (*). It is beginning to become a bit of a soap opera, but it is the damaging effect on the general faith in the system that worries me: people will become so fed up that they start voting for people who manage to appear to be decent, clean-cut candidates, but whose policies are extreme to one side or another.

(* - We all knew he was a p***k, but he didn’t need to prove it.)
A quick google search using the term "minister noisy sex office" has revealed a good few articles mentioning it that were released earlier today, so it seems credible.
 
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jfollows

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According to the Sunday Times
The article at https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...k-that-reignited-westminsters-metoo-7smx9fkd7
Sex, booze and politics: inside the corridors of power in the week that reignited Westminster’s #MeToo
Five years after the Pestminster scandal, the reputation of MPs is back in the gutter, write Caroline Wheeler and Harry Yorke​


Caroline Wheeler

and

Harry Yorke

Saturday April 30 2022, 6.00pm, The Sunday Times

The meeting on Tuesday had been called to quell growing unease among female Tory MPs about the ever-increasing claims of sexual misconduct in Westminster. Instead it had the opposite effect, reigniting the so-called “Pestminster” scandal and plunging parliament back into a crisis over sleaze.

The grenade detonated during a 65-minute session in which more than a dozen women recounted their experiences of misogyny, sexual harassment and bullying. Two female MPs, one a minister, said they had seen a male MP watching pornography on his phone in the House of Commons chamber.

The MP in question, Neil Parish, representing Tiverton and Honiton in Devon, has stood down. He had been suspended by the party after his name emerged on Friday.

Chris Heaton-Harris, the chief whip, had convened Tuesday’s meeting of the 2022 Committee, a revamp of the Conservative Women in Parliament group.

He was prompted to do after the furore over Angela Rayner, Labour’s deputy leader, who was the subject of a lurid briefing by an unnamed Tory MP. He said that she routinely crossed and uncrossed her legs in the Commons to distract the prime minister, Boris Johnson.

But if Heaton-Harris thought that it would be an exercise in catharsis, the anger that followed suggests he has uncovered even more problems.

Last week The Sunday Times revealed that three cabinet ministers and two shadow cabinet ministers were among 56 MPs facing allegations of sexual misconduct. MPs, peers, special advisers, researchers and staff have now shared their accounts of sexual harassment and abuse in the corridors of power.

But while many involve low-level sexism and outdated attitudes, there are also serious allegations of sexual assault. The common thread is a working environment where, despite endless promises of reform, power trumps everything.

Underpinning this is a hard-drinking culture. MPs are often separated from their families for much of the week and there is a large number of young, impressionable researchers eager to rub shoulders with their political idols.

Lockdowns and the closure of bars on the parliamentary estate for much of the past two years, as well as the influx of a generation of young MPs after the 2019 general election, have made matters worse.

One insider said that in recent weeks an MP had become so drunk on champagne that they had been escorted from the Pugin Room, one of the most opulent hospitality venues in parliament. The source also said that a female researcher had consumed so much alcohol that she vomited over a parliamentary bar. She was later found unconscious outside the room. A senior official blamed bar staff for continuing to serve MPs and their staff when they are inebriated.

Baroness Jenkin of Kennington, a co-founder of the Women2Win group, which aims to get more Tory women into politics, described the culture in Westminster as a “toxic mix of stress, and booze and testosterone and power”. She added: “I don’t know what the solution is because you can’t do anything about testosterone and you can’t do much about the stress of it, and the power is inevitable. You can do something about the booze.”

One of the most egregious examples of drunken and disorderly behaviour crossing into serious misconduct is that of a senior MP who has been accused of repeatedly licking the faces of male researchers in parliamentary bars.

Several years ago a former government adviser said that the same MP had groped them on the estate during a social event and later behaved inappropriately towards one of their friends while they were sleeping.

It has also been alleged that a female Tory MP was sent an explicit photograph, known as a “dick pic”, by a male colleague. Another MP has been repeatedly warned about his use of prostitutes, according to sources.

The allegations also extend to members of the government. A minister has been accused of having “noisy sex” in his parliamentary office, frequently overheard by neighbouring MPs.

One of the most senior female MPs in parliament, Anne-Marie Trevelyan, revealed that she had been “pinned up against a wall” by a colleague who made sexual advances towards her.

Her cabinet colleague, Suella Braverman, the attorney-general, said that a minority of men in politics “behave like animals”.

Below the level of serious offending, there are myriad examples of low-level misogyny and sexism which betray a culture still rooted in the past.

One female MP said that for a number of years a minister had referred to her by a nickname which implied that she was sexually promiscuous, while another said she was given a payroll job in government only because she “had tits”.

A third prominent female MP, who was wearing a calf-length leather skirt, was asked by a male colleague what she “did for her day job”, which she interpreted to be a suggestion that she was dressed like a prostitute.

Last week a Welsh MP claimed that one of Sir Keir Starmer’s shadow cabinet members had described her as a “secret weapon” because women wanted to be her friend and men wanted to sleep with her. One MP said: “The problem is that women in parliament are tolerated. They are not seen as an asset. It’s very much a boys’ club.”

The phenomenon is not confined to the Westminster bubble. During a recent by-election, two sources canvassing with a married Conservative MP said that he had joked: “Who needs Tinder when you have got canvassing?”

Last week’s controversy is only the latest chapter in a saga that began five years ago when allegations of sexual harassment by a number of MPs led to the creation of the Independent Complaints and Grievance Scheme (ICGS). Sir Michael Fallon, Charlie Elphicke and Stephen Crabb were among MPs who faced allegations of sexual impropriety.

Fallon resigned as a minister over a string of allegations. Elphicke was jailed for two years on three charges of sexual assault. Two of the cases involved a parliamentary worker in 2016 and one was in relation to a woman at his family’s central London home in 2007.

In 2017, the Tory minister Damian Green was sacked as first secretary of state after admitting he had lied about the presence of pornographic images on his House of Commons computer.

Since it was set up in 2018, the ICGS has conducted a number of investigations into the behaviour of MPs, including most recently John Bercow, the former Speaker of the Commons, who was found to be a “serial bully”, and Mike Hill, the former Labour MP for Hartlepool, who was accused of subjecting a member of his staff to a campaign of sexual harassment and bullying.

Although many within parliament claim the creation of the ICGS is a vast improvement on the scant protections for staff, the culture has yet to change. Some believe it has even got worse.

Last month Imran Ahmad Khan, a Conservative MP, resigned following his conviction for sexually assaulting a 15-year-old boy in 2008. Another Conservative MP, David Warburton, had the whip suspended after it was revealed he was under investigation over alleged sexual harassment. One of Warburton’s alleged victims worked for him — and his office manager was his wife.

The case has led to calls for an overhaul of working practices in parliament where MPs employ staff directly and deal with human resources problems themselves, making it difficult for employees to challenge inappropriate behaviour.

Jenny Symmons, who works for the Labour MP Sarah Owen and chairs the GMB union branch representing MPs’ staff, said: “The ICGS was and is a brilliant improvement on what existed for staff ... if you worked for an MP you had no one to complain to about a workplace issue other than your MP. Often, said MP was indeed the workplace issue you needed to report.

“We now have a mechanism to make complaints and have them investigated thoroughly and independently by trained professionals. However it has not changed the culture of bullying, sexual harassment and the general abuses of power that take place in Westminster. The deference felt towards members of parliament has not gone away.

“While they have the abilities to run their offices (effectively small businesses) however they like without oversight or accountability, the miserable working lives of some staff will not improve.”

Symmons said the union was calling for the employment system for MPs’ staff to be “revolutionised”.

“Power of employment must be taken away from MPs, who arguably have more important matters to focus on, and a central body — be it the House of Commons or the financial authority Ipsa [the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority] — must take over the employment responsibility.

“MPs could still choose their team, in the way big organisations do, but not hold total control over the pay, holiday allowance, working hours and working conditions of their staff.

“This would be an astronomical change in the way our archaic institution works; but the culture of bullying and exploitation in parliament is a rot that requires the floors to be ripped out.”

Dame Andrea Leadsom, the former leader of the House of Commons who led a cross-party panel that oversaw the creation of the ICGS, agrees and now backs the creation of a human resources service for parliament.

However, she still believes the ICGS is fit for purpose and will eventually help to change the culture in parliament. She said: “The problem has been that the ICGS has not been able to employ enough specialist investigators and this has meant that a lot of the investigations have taken too long. This means only a small number of cases have gone through the system but I firmly believe that once that number increases and MPs see that there are serious consequences for their behaviour then the culture will change.”

This weekend Sir Lindsay Hoyle, the Speaker of the House of Commons, has called for a review of working practices and is seeking to establish a Speaker’s conference “as soon as possible” to consider the case for change.

He told The Sunday Times: “I believe it is time we reviewed our working practices, and particularly whether it is right that individual MPs are the employers of their staff. Should someone else — or an outside body — employ the staff, as long as the MP has the right to choose them?

“This would mean that all new staff would be employed on standard terms and conditions. In addition, if a staff member wanted to report a serious breach of employment practice against an MP, they would not have to go to that very same MP to make that report; and less serious complaints and grievances could be resolved more quickly.

“For MPs, they would not have to add the responsibilities of being a small employer to an already important and demanding job — and would have formal support in managing their staff.”

Hoyle added: “I would like us to look at best practice in other parliaments around the world, to see if there are other models that would work here. In my opinion, it is time to consider radical action and review structures and processes that could make a difference. Some serious allegations have been made, and we must address them as a matter of urgency. It is imperative we do the right thing by staff and MPs as well.

I want to make sure that everyone feels they have support and somewhere to turn — and to make this House not only a safe and inclusive place to work, but a model for other legislatures.”

While Hoyle’s proposals will be welcomed by many MPs, there will be others who will question how easy it will be to restore the reputation of a parliament so mired in scandal.
 

nw1

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I think all phones and devices should be switched off when an MP is in the House of Commons chamber.

They are there to listen and take part in the debates, and you can't do that if you are busy looking at unrelated matters on your phone.

Unless you take the view that some MPs are there just to make up the numbers, and vote when and how they are told to do so ny the party whips.
Given how sheep-like many MPs are, blindly following the party line as if they have no brain of their own, I do wonder whether half of them are a complete waste of public money.

It's time to do away with whips and it's time to do away with first-past-the-post. There are other views besides those of the Johnson/Patel/Raab/Truss/Kwarteng/Dorries clique, and they need to be represented.
 

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Of course Crown Steward and Bailiff Paterson got almost 63% of the vote in 2019 with a similarly divided opposition and the Lib Dems third. https://electionresults.parliament.uk/election/2019-12-12/Results/Location/Constituency/North Shropshire/

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Given that Kwarteng is one of the "Britannia Unchained" lot (see also: Patel, Raab, Truss) who seemed to consider British workers as lazy, good-for-nothing shirkers, that's a bit rich from him.


The well-respected local councillor could always stand as an Independent. While it (sadly IMO) didn't work for Messrs. Grieve and Gauke in 2019, in these local elections it might be another matter.
Grieve and Gauke were standing in the general election when we were threatened with Comrade Corbyn on one side and 'getting Brexit done' on the other. This is different. The only way the Conservatives will lose their majority is if Johnson repeats his tactic of September 2019 and withdraws the whip from stacks of his own backbenchers. Voters can vote for who they like, knowing it will make no difference.
The Conservatives need to select a strong woman candidate because I'm not sure watching porn will go down very well with the blue rinse brigade and any suggestion that they have not learn't their lesson will go down very badly, whether it is justified or not.

I suspect Kwateng's quote will come back to haunt him and not just because the Great British Public don't think that MPs work too hard. There must be a fair chance that either Hislop or Merton will raise it in Have I Got a Bit More News For You.
 

nw1

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Grieve and Gauke were standing in the general election when we were threatened with Comrade Corbyn on one side and 'getting Brexit done' on the other. This is different. The only way the Conservatives will lose their majority is if Johnson repeats his tactic of September 2019 and withdraws the whip from stacks of his own backbenchers. Voters can vote for who they like, knowing it will make no difference.
The Conservatives need to select a strong woman candidate because I'm not sure watching porn will go down very well with the blue rinse brigade and any suggestion that they have not learn't their lesson will go down very badly, whether it is justified or not.
Not sure who that will be though. Patel and Truss are both right-wing "Britannia Unchained"ers, Braverman is a dogmatic Brexiter, and Dorries doesn't strike me as particularly appealing. Bring back Theresa May? Not that I want another Tory government, but she could perhaps do well as an anti-sleaze candidate. But the attack on her by her own party and replacement with Johnson perhaps partly had sexist motivations, in any case. Perhaps she would do well with the general public but not with the blue-rinse dinosaurs who appear to make up the Conservative Party membership.
 
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gg1

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It's time to do away with whips and it's time to do away with first-past-the-post.
I wouldn't get rid of whips completely, I have no issue with them being used when the vote is in line with an item included in the governing party's election manifesto, but for any other votes they shouldn't be used.

Completely agree with first past the post, though I'm undecided as top which of the alternatives I would prefer.
 

Typhoon

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Not sure who that will be though. Patel and Truss are both right-wing "Britannia Unchained"ers, Braverman is a dogmatic Brexiter, and Dorries doesn't strike me as particularly appealing. Bring back Theresa May? Not that I want another Tory government, but she could perhaps do well as an anti-sleaze candidate. But the attack on her by her own party and replacement with Johnson perhaps partly had sexist motivations, in any case. Perhaps she would do well with the general public but not with the blue-rinse dinosaurs who appear to make up the Conservative Party membership.
Sorry - I meant for Parish's seat!
 

Busaholic

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I think all phones and devices should be switched off when an MP is in the House of Commons chamber.

They are there to listen and take part in the debates, and you can't do that if you are busy looking at unrelated matters on your phone.

Unless you take the view that some MPs are there just to make up the numbers, and vote when and how they are told to do so ny the party whips.

But yes, there is a world of difference between accidentally opening a porn site and deliberately sitting there looking at it for several minutes.
I'm in total agreement with that. What is more, seeing other Parliaments at work via TV and internet, I see almost no evidence of elected representatives elsewhere clutching devices in their workplace.

How things have changed - a pager going off in the Chamber during a debate used to earn a rebuke from the Speaker. Now they chat, text, view who-knows-what or lie languidly across the bench. Still, so long as the latter is done by a pin-striped booby and he's wearing a tie, that's OK. :rolleyes:
 

Typhoon

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Ah right, apologies - I thought your suggestion was a brand new anti-sleaze woman leader of the Tories, as you can probably guess!
Actually, I have just noticed that 'Parish' is just a slip of the finger away from 'Pariah'. Apt.

As regards leadership of the Conservatives, lots of the women I thought were at least any good were kicked out or resigned in 2019 (men, too, actually). You are being far too generous with Dorries. The fact that you suggest May (and I don't disagree) shows the paucity of talent - and she would be unacceptable to the 'Erg'. There are several who are any good but they are usually mavericks who don't get far up the ministerial ladder.

How things have changed - a pager going off in the Chamber during a debate used to earn a rebuke from the Speaker. Now they chat, text, view who-knows-what or lie languidly across the bench. Still, so long as the latter is done by a pin-striped booby and he's wearing a tie, that's OK.
Add to that there are those that drop off. Still Kwateng thinks they are working hard. Maybe the PM has promised the Secretary of State for Defence job to whoever gets the highest score on Call of Duty and they are practicing. (Do you get high scores? Is it most 'kills', lasting the longest? I opted out after Space Invaders).
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Harking back to the fact that May 5th is actually Local Election Day, if the electorate decide to vote in large numbers on what happens in the House of Commons and many local councils change the colour of their political hue, can we see matters such as bin collection, pothole repairing, etc, be greatly improved from the situation currently appertaining?
 

gg1

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How things have changed - a pager going off in the Chamber during a debate used to earn a rebuke from the Speaker. Now they chat, text, view who-knows-what or lie languidly across the bench. Still, so long as the latter is done by a pin-striped booby and he's wearing a tie, that's OK. :rolleyes:
Add to that there are those that drop off.
Dropping of is the least objectionable of all the ones listed, at least you can legitimitely claim it was unintentional
 

Shrop

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How about Kwasi Kwarteng going on national TV today saying "... there are people who have acted very badly, and they should be held to account". It makes you wonder if he thinks breaking the law simply doesn't count as acting badly, otherwise surely this must apply to Boris. Double standards among senior MPs? Fit to run the country???
 

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What tractor website has a similar name to a porno site??

Apparently there is a brand of combine harvester called Dominator - so there's speculation that that is what Neil Parish was searching for.

(EDIT: Funnily enough, straight after posting that, I felt an inexplicable urge to watch a certain Wurzels song on YouTube).
 

PG

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Apparently there is a brand of combine harvester called Dominator - so there's speculation that that is what Neil Parish was searching for.
Still sounds like an 'after the matter' fitting of facts...

can we see matters such as bin collection, pothole repairing, etc, be greatly improved from the situation currently appertaining?
Local councils still depend on central government allocated funds, so regardless of their colours they'll still be working with the same pot of money. They may allocate it differently but if all the potholes get fixed properly you wonder what other items will be de-prioritised!
 

Busaholic

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Apparently there is a brand of combine harvester called Dominator - so there's speculation that that is what Neil Parish was searching for.

(EDIT: Funnily enough, straight after posting that, I felt an inexplicable urge to watch a certain Wurzels song on YouTube).
No, no, no: I insist it was the new online version of the old top shelf mag 'Tractor Drivers' Wives' and features wife Debbie flaunting her pair of magnificent Massive Fergusons, which have just been in for a refurb.
 

david1212

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Not sure who that will be though. Patel and Truss are both right-wing "Britannia Unchained"ers, Braverman is a dogmatic Brexiter, and Dorries doesn't strike me as particularly appealing. Bring back Theresa May? Not that I want another Tory government, but she could perhaps do well as an anti-sleaze candidate. But the attack on her by her own party and replacement with Johnson perhaps partly had sexist motivations, in any case. Perhaps she would do well with the general public but not with the blue-rinse dinosaurs who appear to make up the Conservative Party membership.
While the list of likely candidates for PM in place of Johnson is dire I would hope May gets seen as being too isolated from the real world. First she called an election expecting to get a bigger majority but had to get the DUP in bed to just scrape past the post. Second she worked to deliver a Brexit that was so close to Bremain which many of her party could not agree with so became her downfall.
 

gg1

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Maybe it was farming implements more generally rather than specifically tractors. For all we know he could have been in the market for some new hand tools and totally innocently searched for 'cheap hoes'
 

Busaholic

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Maybe it was farming implements more generally rather than specifically tractors. For all we know he could have been in the market for some new hand tools and totally innocently searched for 'cheap hoes'
Well, he's near Plymouth :D
 

The Ham

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Maybe it was farming implements more generally rather than specifically tractors. For all we know he could have been in the market for some new hand tools and totally innocently searched for 'cheap hoes'

On Twitter a comedian suggested that he was a ex-tractor fan.
 

edwin_m

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Nottingham
While the list of likely candidates for PM in place of Johnson is dire I would hope May gets seen as being too isolated from the real world. First she called an election expecting to get a bigger majority but had to get the DUP in bed to just scrape past the post. Second she worked to deliver a Brexit that was so close to Bremain which many of her party could not agree with so became her downfall.
She was working towards leaving the single market and customs union, the two main things that Johnson did, so it was much closer to Johnson's final deal than to remaining. The main difference was the inclusion of the Northern Ireland "backstop" that would keep Britain within EU rules if an arrangement couldn't be agreed for the Irish border. Johnson did the same, except that he struck a "deal" with the EU that he fully expected to tear up, stabbing the DUP in the back in the process.
 
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