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When Will It All Go Wrong For The Tories/ Johnson?

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Shrop

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Ultimately it sounds to me like an imperfect solution to a horrendously difficult problem. At least the Government are trying to find solutions - which is more than can be said for Labour/the LibDems/the SNP, who are basically standing on the sidelines shouting about how awful the idea is, but without offering any alternative ideas to solve the problem.
"More than can be said for Labour"? According to a report on BBC news this evening it was a Labour idea from around 2003.

As for finding solutions, are you seriously praising the Government for this? Solutions have been needed for many, many years, but Boris and other Tories have failed dismally to provide any solutions, or much attempt at even addressing this any time since they came into power. But he suddenly publicises a highly contentious solution at the exact time that he's absolutely desperate for a distraction from Partygate. What a remarkable coincidence!
 
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Bletchleyite

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"More than can be said for Labour"? According to a report on BBC news this evening it was a Labour idea from around 2003.

As for finding solutions, are you seriously praising the Government for this? Solutions have been needed for many, many years, but Boris and other Tories have failed dismally to provide any solutions, or much attempt at even addressing this any time since they came into power. But he suddenly publicises a highly contentious solution at the exact time that he's absolutely desperate for a distraction from Partygate. What a remarkable coincidence!

:)

I do agree with the point you quote about negative politics, and I am thoroughly fed up of it from all sides. It is very easy to say what shouldn't happen, and Starmer is a master of it. But I want to hear what Labour WOULD change and how, and why it would be a positive change. Not just a constant whine about what the Tories are doing wrong.

For one instance food banks. Not bleat about the Tories have caused people to end up needing them, but how Labour will reform the tax/benefits system (including provable costings) to mean they don't.
 

nw1

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Because he hasn’t done anything immoral; I find this a bit overwrought to be honest. As far as I can tell, this is a discussion solely over the principle.

(I agree that the principle is bad, and that the responsibility for signing into existence a law that was broader than he realised lies with him!)

I would say the hypocrisy is immoral though. (sorry, edited longer reply, I have now read some subsequent posts...)
 
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DynamicSpirit

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But he suddenly publicises a highly contentious solution at the exact time that he's absolutely desperate for a distraction from Partygate. What a remarkable coincidence!

Ah, the usual 'It's all suddenly been arranged overnight just to distract from the other news' conspiracy theory. Because of course planning a major policy announcement like this and making all the arrangements only takes 5 minutes doesn't it! You don't need any months of work involving civil servants working out how the policy will work, do you! The international agreement with Rwanda was probably a snap decision in a phone call between Boris and the Rwandan President this morning and it then took 2 minutes to scribble out the contract and another 30 seconds to get lawyers and civil servants in both countries to check everything, OK it all and resolve any issues. And likewise, the Home Secretary being in Rwanda to sign the agreement didn't involve any advance planning did it - no need to do anything like, actually arranging schedules with anyone in the Rwandan Government. She probably teleported across at 2 minutes' notice on the off-chance that someone in the Rwandan Government would be free to do an off-the-cuff signing ceremony and press conference.

Whatever you think about whether the policy is a good idea or not, if you're going to come up with conspiracy theories about it, can't you at least make them a teeny bit plausible?
 
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The Ham

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Ah, the usual 'It's all just to distract from the other news' conspiracy theory. Because of course planning a major policy announcement like this and making all the arrangements only takes 5 minutes doesn't it! You don't need any months of work involving civil servants working out how the policy will work, do you! The international agreement with Rwanda was probably a snap decision in a phone call between Boris and the Rwandan President this morning and it then took 2 minutes to scribble out the contract and another 30 seconds to get lawyers and civil servants in both countries to check everything, OK it all and resolve any issues. And likewise, the Home Secretary being in Rwanda to sign the agreement didn't involve any advance planning did it - no need to do anything like, actually arranging schedules with anyone in the Rwandan Government. She probably teleported across at 2 minutes' notice.

Whatever you think about whether the policy is a good idea or not, if you're going to come up with conspiracy theories about it, can't you at least make them a teeny bit plausible?

Whilst you're right that you can't just rustle up a new policy in 2 minutes, however it is entirely possible to get it sorted and then announce when it suits you.

Of course it's not like this is anything overly new, given that the migrant crisis in the Med came to a head 7 years ago.

Again a classic example of being reactive rather than proactive.

Arguably we should be looking to encourage more working aged people to come and live here. As whilst the population has been grown, most of that has been down to there being a larger and larger number of older people. As such they are not only less likely to be economically active, but also more likely to use services (i.e. wanting to pay others to do things for them).
 

Shrop

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Not bleat about the Tories have caused people to end up needing them, but how Labour will reform the tax/benefits system (including provable costings) ...
This is one of the very worst features of UK politics, it's all about negativity, and in this the Tory and Labour Parties are every bit as bad as each other (these being the only Parties in power for the last 100 years this year, I think).

We need politicians who will do exactly what you suggest, ie provide support for those in Government, giving them useful ideas where they can, yet we now have 100 years of the time-wasting destructive "put down the opposition" comments we witness every day when Parliament is televised. To the shame of the country, these put downs often appear to be the number one objective in speeches made by the more senior politicians, more important to them than the issues they claim to be presenting. This is probably one of the greatest arguments in favour of proportional representation, which I guess is for another thread, but in the context of this thread "When will it all go wrong for the Tories / Johnson", the problem is that it has gone wrong many times over, but still they lie, break the law and cling on. And no, I don't claim that Labour would be much better, and I have no reason to believe any other politicians would be either. The real problem is that our whole political system is very, very sick.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Ah, the usual 'It's all suddenly been arranged overnight just to distract from the other news' conspiracy theory. Because of course planning a major policy announcement like this and making all the arrangements only takes 5 minutes doesn't it! You don't need any months of work involving civil servants working out how the policy will work, do you! The international agreement with Rwanda was probably a snap decision in a phone call between Boris and the Rwandan President this morning and it then took 2 minutes to scribble out the contract and another 30 seconds to get lawyers and civil servants in both countries to check everything, OK it all and resolve any issues. And likewise, the Home Secretary being in Rwanda to sign the agreement didn't involve any advance planning did it - no need to do anything like, actually arranging schedules with anyone in the Rwandan Government. She probably teleported across at 2 minutes' notice on the off-chance that someone in the Rwandan Government would be free to do an off-the-cuff signing ceremony and press conference.

Whatever you think about whether the policy is a good idea or not, if you're going to come up with conspiracy theories about it, can't you at least make them a teeny bit plausible?
Very amusing sarcasm I'm sure. Of course these things take time, it's the timing of its release that earned the sarcasm of my own.
 

nw1

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Alex Johnson is a compulsive liar.
If you want to keep the man on as FM you may well wonder what he could be lying about next time?

Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson if you don't mind. He's from a very important family, and descended from Bavarian royalty, if I remember correctly, don't you know - so needs to be treated with the utmost respect.

;)
 

birchesgreen

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This is one of the very worst features of UK politics, it's all about negativity, and in this the Tory and Labour Parties are every bit as bad as each other (these being the only Parties in power for the last 100 years this year, I think).
Getting rid of FPTP would help a lot, political parties might have to *gasp* work together instead of getting drunk and shouting at each other.

Replacing the archaic adversatorial parliament chamber and having a modern chamber with desks would also help.
 

DynamicSpirit

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Whilst you're right that you can't just rustle up a new policy in 2 minutes, however it is entirely possible to get it sorted and then announce when it suits you.

I suppose theoretically you could do, but even that seems pretty implausible when you think about it: Imagine you've spent months working out some new flagship policy and getting the details sorted. Are you really going to then just sit on the policy for - potentially, months on end - refusing to announce it, thereby losing all the publicity benefits of getting it out now, as well as taking the risk of something about it leaking out, just so that you have it available to rush out if some other news you want to hide unexpectedly turns up? (And then when you do finally rush it out, suffer huge embarrassment when someone in the Press notices that all the associated documents are dated from months ago?) That also makes no sense. I can believe that you might hold off an announcement for a week or so if there's some other pressing stuff distracting from it - for example, I wouldn't be surprised if, on the day that Russia invaded Ukraine, there was some hasty postponing of other less important work within the UK Government. But anything much beyond that is just stretching credulity to breaking point.

Besides, it's in the normal course of Government that bad news is almost always coming out. The country and the Government is big enough and there's enough going on that there's almost always going to be something going wrong on any given day. It's not like bad news is a rare, isolated, event.
 

AM9

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I suppose theoretically you could do, but even that seems pretty implausible when you think about it: Imagine you've spent months working out some new flagship policy and getting the details sorted. Are you really going to then just sit on the policy for - potentially, months on end - refusing to announce it, thereby losing all the publicity benefits of getting it out now, as well as taking the risk of something about it leaking out, just so that you have it available to rush out if some other news you want to hide unexpectedly turns up? (And then when you do finally rush it out, suffer huge embarrassment when someone in the Press notices that all the associated documents are dated from months ago?) That also makes no sense. I can believe that you might hold off an announcement for a week or so if there's some other pressing stuff distracting from it - for example, I wouldn't be surprised if, on the day that Russia invaded Ukraine, there was some hasty postponing of other less important work within the UK Government. But anything much beyond that is just stretching credulity to breaking point.
But the current administration needs a diversion every few days, so a plan like this doesn't need shelving for long.
 

AlterEgo

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I'm afraid you'll need to elaborate on this further please, if forum rules allow
They don’t because of the content. He’s not a nice man. You can do your own research on him and come to your own conclusions.
 

Gloster

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They don’t because of the content. He’s not a nice man. You can do your own research on him and come to your own conclusions.
Which may well be true: my ‘researches’ (a pretentious way of saying googling) don’t get me very far. However, that is not to say that what he says in the twitter thread in #1,851 is not accurate or reasonable.
 

AlterEgo

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Which may well be true: my ‘researches’ (a pretentious way of saying googling) don’t get me very far. However, that is not to say that what he says in the twitter thread in #1,851 is not accurate or reasonable.
I’m sure it’s accurate, I just get consistently annoyed when others surface some of the Tory opposition’s worst and least likeable people. The government stinks, try to sideline those on the opposition who suffer from some of the same moral afflictions as those in power.
 

The Ham

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Interestingly in the BBC article about the moving of people to Rwanda their government welcomed the move because "Rwandan ministers believe the arrival of motivated migrants will help boost their economy and the deal itself will encourage further investment."


Which is very different to the way many will view people coming to this country, also from the article "Boris Johnson knew what buttons he was pressing when he said: "We can't ask the British taxpayer to write a blank cheque to cover the costs of anyone who might want to come and live here.""

In reality the truth is likely that there'll be some who do cause a drain whilst others who benefit us. However generally, even those who are fully reliant on benefits will be benefiting the economy to some extent (that benefit money will be being spent in shops, paying rent, etc.).

Given the nuence of the economy it may well be that money is the difference between a business being sustainable or not. Which could mean that small amount of benefit spending keeps another from being on benefits.

Of course in very simple terms the more people a business has access to the better that business is likely to do. As such, the more people that there are in the UK the better business are likely to do.

Whilst we do need to consider that we can't fit 9 billion people in the UK, a lot of the concerns about there being too many people here are overplayed.

If we all organised to have a picnic we'd need the width of a motorway from South to North to be able to fit the entire UK population into.

A lot of our urban space is required not for us, but rather for our cars (given that within the UK there are more cars than household, and given that there's quite a few second homes and even more homes with no cars as well as London having about 10% of the population, it's quite a shocking statistic when you think about it).

I live in a Distinct Council area where if we reduced our car ownership to the average of the County Council area (which at ~1.3 is still higher than the national average, which is 1.24, although is a little lower than the car ownership rate of we exclude London 1.33) we could build a further 10,000 homes (current numbers circa 42,000 homes) and not increase the number of cars over the current total.

As I've highlighted before I live (by government definition, that being somewhere with a population of less than 10,000) in a rural settlement (unlike 85% of the UK population) we only have one car and rarely have issues because of that.

We live towards one edge (where the train station, shops, bus services, etc are broadly on the opposite position to us within the settlement) and everything is walkable.

The one thing which we do locally, at a Hotel outside the settlement boundary on the far side to where we live, which we do really need to scoot/cycle for if we weren't able to drive would be the kids swimming lessons.

We've just got planning permission to extend to a 4 bed house, we needed to have 3 parking spaces, yet it's likely that we'll not own that many cars and if we do is likely that it'll be for a few years when our kids are of driving age.
 

DynamicSpirit

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If we actually wanted to fix that problem we'd give them a safe route of entering the UK. Perhaps a Home Office facility in Calais where they can make their asylum claim and then chuck them on a ferry across to the UK. I think that would go a lot further a lot quick and a lot cheaper than flying them 4,000 miles away when it comes to ending people smuggling over the Channel.

Wouldn't that just shift the problem rather than solving it? You'd relieve trafficking between Calais and Dover, but only at the expense of massively encouraging trafficking between Africa/Asia etc. and Calais! It would also mean you're preferentially giving asylum to those people who can pay smugglers to get as far as Calais, which is probably not a good basis for judging who most needs asylum. And it also begs the question of: Anyone in Calais is already in a safe country - and probably had to pass through multiple other safe countries to get there, in which they have apparently chosen not to claim asylum - so why should they get special facilities that would effectively give them priority for entry to the UK over people who are actually living in conflict zones etc.?
 
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DarloRich

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I dont think this Rwanda policy was dreamt up in 5 minutes. They have been working on it for ages. I do think it was released when it was to capture headlines, move the focus of Johnson and play to kippers ahead of the local and now by elections coming up.

The policy is an expensive bit of nonsense that imo wont do anything except arouse kippers. It certainly wont impact on the smuggling gangs.

In any event the "focus" on the gangs is simply clothing to hide the real policy: send the bu××ers back! The Tories arent intrested in smashing the gangs. They are intrested in stopping any forigns ( unless loaded) from coming here. It is what they have built thier fan base on and it is why the Tory party is now really just UKIP and the political wing of the Daily Mail comments section!
 

nw1

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In any event the "focus" on the gangs is simply clothing to hide the real policy: send the bu××ers back! The Tories arent intrested in smashing the gangs. They are intrested in stopping any forigns ( unless loaded) from coming here. It is what they have built thier fan base on and it is why the Tory party is now really just UKIP and the political wing of the Daily Mail comments section!

Yes, I believe this to be the case. The current Tory government realises that, recently, the xenophobic vote has been a good way to maintain a majority and thus it will, for now, try to court it. However I am not convinced it will work this time. I think now, people are more concerned about the cost of living and economic after-effects of lockdown, and the government would do well to focus on these issues, rather than immigrant-bashing.

However, I suspect pride, and not wishing to U-turn, will mean they will not change their policy on immigration. I think you'll need either a Labour government, or a fresh set of Tories who did not play a major role in the Brexit process (thinking of some of those calling for Johnson's resignation here), to change that.
 

Gloster

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Yes, I believe this to be the case. The current Tory government realises that, recently, the xenophobic vote has been a good way to maintain a majority and thus it will, for now, try to court it. However I am not convinced it will work this time. I think now, people are more concerned about the cost of living and economic after-effects of lockdown, and the government would do well to focus on these issues, rather than immigrant-bashing.

However, I suspect pride, and not wishing to U-turn, will mean they will not change their policy on immigration. I think you'll need either a Labour government, or a fresh set of Tories who did not play a major role in the Brexit process (thinking of some of those calling for Johnson's resignation here), to change that.
I entirely agree. I think the Conservatives have calculated that at the next election the number of seats that they will win or retain by appealing to those anti-foreigners voters who no longer make their choice on the basis of getting Brexit done, is greater than those they will lose by previous Conservative voters turning away as they are put off by their anti-immigrant/foreigner rhetoric. That has become to such an extent the main central plank of their policies that they don’t have much room for and have not given much thought to other problems.
 

AM9

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I entirely agree. I think the Conservatives have calculated that at the next election the number of seats that they will win or retain by appealing to those anti-foreigners voters who no longer make their choice on the basis of getting Brexit done, is greater than those they will lose by previous Conservative voters turning away as they are put off by their anti-immigrant/foreigner rhetoric. That has become to such an extent the main central plank of their policies that they don’t have much room for and have not given much thought to other problems.
I agree, it might be that the red wall tory voters will shoot themselves in the foot again at the next GE. Maybe if they had a bit more self respect they could ask themselves the question: 'what have the tories done for us?'
I think they might find the answers wouldn't be anything like the ever increasing list of things that the Romans did for ordinary people! :)
 

nw1

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I agree, it might be that the red wall tory voters will shoot themselves in the foot again at the next GE. Maybe if they had a bit more self respect they could ask themselves the question: 'what have the tories done for us?'
I think they might find the answers wouldn't be anything like the ever increasing list of things that the Romans did for ordinary people! :)

Well they got Brexit done, didn't they? And "Boris" is a "liar but a nice chap", isn't he? ;)

(Seriously I hope people will stop thinking this way soon. The Wakefield by election will be a test of that I guess. If Labour don't win that, particularly with the circumstances surrounding the outgoing Tory MP, it will be a bit worrying).
 

DynamicSpirit

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I dont think this Rwanda policy was dreamt up in 5 minutes. They have been working on it for ages. I do think it was released when it was to capture headlines, move the focus of Johnson and play to kippers ahead of the local and now by elections coming up.

The policy is an expensive bit of nonsense that imo wont do anything except arouse kippers. It certainly wont impact on the smuggling gangs.

In any event the "focus" on the gangs is simply clothing to hide the real policy: send the bu××ers back! The Tories arent intrested in smashing the gangs. They are intrested in stopping any forigns ( unless loaded) from coming here. It is what they have built thier fan base on and it is why the Tory party is now really just UKIP and the political wing of the Daily Mail comments section!

Yes, I believe this to be the case. The current Tory government realises that, recently, the xenophobic vote has been a good way to maintain a majority and thus it will, for now, try to court it. However I am not convinced it will work this time. I think now, people are more concerned about the cost of living and economic after-effects of lockdown, and the government would do well to focus on these issues, rather than immigrant-bashing.

However, I suspect pride, and not wishing to U-turn, will mean they will not change their policy on immigration. I think you'll need either a Labour government, or a fresh set of Tories who did not play a major role in the Brexit process (thinking of some of those calling for Johnson's resignation here), to change that.

I entirely agree. I think the Conservatives have calculated that at the next election the number of seats that they will win or retain by appealing to those anti-foreigners voters who no longer make their choice on the basis of getting Brexit done, is greater than those they will lose by previous Conservative voters turning away as they are put off by their anti-immigrant/foreigner rhetoric. That has become to such an extent the main central plank of their policies that they don’t have much room for and have not given much thought to other problems.

I would say these posts completely illustrate the problem on the left/progressive side of politics in the UK. That's three posts in a row that, instead of trying to debate the merits of the Government's immigration proposals in good faith, all try to make out (with any real evidence) that the policy is some kind of cynical publicity stunt by people who probably don't really believe it.

Seriously, people... does it never occur to you that, just possibly, a Conservative policy might have been worked out because the relevant people have studied the situation and the various options available, and come to the conclusion that it is the best available thing they can do, and that - even if you personally think the policy is wrong - they do believe that policy is the right thing? Can you not understand that other people might genuinely, in good faith, disagree with the general 'progressive/left-wing' view about what the best thing to do on immigration is? And can you not try to address the actual policy debate instead of just trying to make out that the 'other side' must be acting in bad faith whenever they propose something that you disagree with?

Getting back onto the main thread topic of, "When Will It All Go Wrong For The Tories/ Johnson", I think this is the fundamental reason why the Tories, despite all their problems (and to be fair they have had a lot of problems over the past year, many of them self-inflicted) will keep confounding the left when it comes to winning - or at least doing a lot better than expected - at elections: Because too many people on the left have become so convinced of their own righteousness that they've forgotten about things like respecting and trying to understand the right-wing point of view. And as a result they end up just doing more and more to alienate moderate/centre-ground voters - who very often actually share the right-wing point of view on a good number of issues. (Not trying to personally accuse the people I'm replying to of that, but the three posts I've quoted do seem to perfectly illustrate that attitude).
 

nw1

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I would say these posts completely illustrate the problem on the left/progressive side of politics in the UK. That's three posts in a row that, instead of trying to debate the merits of the Government's immigration proposals in good faith, all seem to make out (with any real evidence) that the policy is some kind of cynical publicity stunt by people who probably don't really believe it.

Seriously, people... does it never occur to you that, just possibly, a Conservative policy might have been worked out because the relevant people have studied the situation and the various options available, and come to the conclusion that it is the best available thing they can do, and that - even if you personally think the policy is wrong - they do believe that policy is the right thing? Can you not understand that other people might genuinely, in good faith, disagree with the general 'progressive/left-wing' view about what the best thing to do on immigration is? And can you not try to address the actual policy debate instead of just trying to make out that the 'other side' must be acting in bad faith whenever they propose something that you disagree with?

Getting back onto the main thread topic of, "When Will It All Go Wrong For The Tories/ Johnson", I think this is the fundamental reason why the Tories, despite all their problems (and to be fair they have had a lot of problems over the past year, many of them self-inflicted) will keep confounding the left when it comes to winning - or at least doing a lot better than expected - at elections: Because too many people on the left have become so convinced of their own righteousness that they've forgotten about things like respecting and trying to understand the right-wing point of view. And as a result they end up just doing more and more to alienate moderate/centre-ground voters - who very often actually share the right-wing point of view on a good number of issues. (Not trying to personally accuse the people I'm replying to of that, but the three posts I've quoted do seem to perfectly illustrate that attitude).

I think the thing is that most of us, not just on the left I suspect, are cynical of politicians as a whole and their motives. Starmer is no saint, Corbyn made some incredibly stupid decisions and Swinson was IMO an egotistical publicity seeker. It just so happens that, as the party in power, the Tories are inevitably going to be the target of our cynicism.

So I'm afraid that my natural reaction to most decisions by politicians is cynicism - "what's in it for them?" Admittedly I will be more cynical with politicians who do not share my views, but will freely admit that Labour are guilty of the same thing. It just so happens that I agree with Labour and the Lib Dems on more issues than the Tories, and that (together with personally, the fact I will never forgive the Tories for Brexit) will sway which way I vote.

I'm not so sure the "left" are alienating middle or centre ground voters. Most people I know are pretty MOR or centrist type people, rather than militant socialists - yet the vast majority of them do not complain about Labour being extreme; the general opinion is that "most politicians are in it for their own ends but the Tories and Johnson are particularly bad". From my analysis, the repeated tendency for the Tories to win elections is more down to the split nature of the non-Tory vote, and the unfortunate tendency for Labour and Lib Dem to indulge in constant squabbling. Look at America where the anti-Trump vote was not split, Trump failed to win in 2020 - despite getting a considerably higher percentage of the American vote than Johnson did the British vote in 2019. Trump is more popular in America than the Tories are in the UK, yet the Tories won and Trump didn't.
 
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edwin_m

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Because too many people on the left have become so convinced of their own righteousness that they've forgotten about things like respecting and trying to understand the right-wing point of view. And as a result they end up just doing more and more to alienate moderate/centre-ground voters - who very often actually share the right-wing point of view on a good number of issues. (Not trying to personally accuse the people I'm replying to of that, but the three posts I've quoted do seem to perfectly illustrate that attitude).
It's not as if the Tories have done anything to understand the point of view of the roughly 50% of the electorate who opposed and still oppose Brexit.
 

nw1

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It's not as if the Tories have done anything to understand the point of view of the roughly 50% of the electorate who opposed and still oppose Brexit.

Playing devil's advocate it's probably more like 35%, but then only 35% likely support Brexit, with the other 30% not caring either way. But good point.
 

Strathclyder

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So I'm afraid that my natural reaction to most decisions by politicians is cynicism - "what's in it for them?" Admittedly I will be more cynical with politicians who do not share my views, but will freely admit that Labour are guilty of the same thing. It just so happens that I agree with Labour and the Lib Dems on more issues than the Tories, and that (together with personally, the fact I will never forgive the Tories for Brexit) will sway which way I vote.
A consise summation and is more or less where I land on this issue, though I personally find the current mob of Tories to be nothing more than a shower of utterly repugnant, morally bankrupt, power-hungry, arrogant, self-serving morons/crooks. Of course, all politicians possess these qualities to varying degrees, but they - the lot currently in power - embody them so thoroughly that it's almost, almost impressive. But mostly stomach-churning.
 

Shrop

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Getting back onto the main thread topic of, "When Will It All Go Wrong For The Tories/ Johnson", I think this is the fundamental reason why the Tories, despite all their problems (and to be fair they have had a lot of problems over the past year, many of them self-inflicted) will keep confounding the left when it comes to winning
The only reason the Tories "keep confounding the left" as you put it, is because "the left" have very little credibility. But I wouldn't just say "the left", I'd say there is no other political party at all, with enough about them to gain power. After all, what other political party is there that isn't either too radical, or which has become so sidetracked with "minority" issues that their primary focus has lost credibility?

I stick by my view upthread. To reiterate ... In the context of this thread "When will it all go wrong for the Tories / Johnson", the problem is that it has gone wrong many times over, but still they lie, break the law and cling on. And no, I don't claim that Labour would be much better, and I have no reason to believe any other politicians would be either. The real problem is that our whole political system is very, very sick.
 

brad465

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I would say these posts completely illustrate the problem on the left/progressive side of politics in the UK. That's three posts in a row that, instead of trying to debate the merits of the Government's immigration proposals in good faith, all try to make out (with any real evidence) that the policy is some kind of cynical publicity stunt by people who probably don't really believe it.

Seriously, people... does it never occur to you that, just possibly, a Conservative policy might have been worked out because the relevant people have studied the situation and the various options available, and come to the conclusion that it is the best available thing they can do, and that - even if you personally think the policy is wrong - they do believe that policy is the right thing? Can you not understand that other people might genuinely, in good faith, disagree with the general 'progressive/left-wing' view about what the best thing to do on immigration is? And can you not try to address the actual policy debate instead of just trying to make out that the 'other side' must be acting in bad faith whenever they propose something that you disagree with?

Getting back onto the main thread topic of, "When Will It All Go Wrong For The Tories/ Johnson", I think this is the fundamental reason why the Tories, despite all their problems (and to be fair they have had a lot of problems over the past year, many of them self-inflicted) will keep confounding the left when it comes to winning - or at least doing a lot better than expected - at elections: Because too many people on the left have become so convinced of their own righteousness that they've forgotten about things like respecting and trying to understand the right-wing point of view. And as a result they end up just doing more and more to alienate moderate/centre-ground voters - who very often actually share the right-wing point of view on a good number of issues. (Not trying to personally accuse the people I'm replying to of that, but the three posts I've quoted do seem to perfectly illustrate that attitude).
Being moderate and pragmatic isn't allowed anymore, ever since social media and echo chambers really took off. I think what's benefitted the Tories is that this scenario arose while being the incumbents; were Labour in charge in the middle of the last decade maybe things would be very different. I think things will go wrong for the Tories before long, but not in a desirable way, that's to say we're past the point of no return where a relatively peaceful change can come. I don't know how or when, but I think it's more likely change will come because a collapse/breakdown in society that will then have to be rebuilt, than change happening more peacefully. This does not mean the Tories will be the ones entirely responsible for a societal collapse, this just means such an event is likely to happen while they're overseeing things, in the same way Labour happened to be around when banker's wrongdoings were uncovered in nasty fashion in 2008.
 
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