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When Will It All Go Wrong For The Tories/ Johnson?

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brad465

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The local Tories in dartford appear to be celebrating the opening of a...wait for it...foodbank. Something that should bring shame on a political party, no sir, let's party instead. Let's celebrate local people not being able to afford food from normal shops.

Perhaps the champagne bottle will be cracked open against a warmth bank that the elderly can go to in winter to avoid hypothermia?


Includes Picure of local civic dignitaries smiling cutting a ribbon.
I believe they usually try and spin it as as positive as it's a demonstration of how charitable and supportive the average Brit is of their fellows. Ignoring the massive elephant in the room which is that Foodbanks shouldn't be a growth industry.
Wait until cost of living gets so difficult that those who donate to food banks can no longer afford to do so, then there won't be any celebrations.



"We don't do charity in Germany, we pay taxes. Charity is a failure of Government's responsibilities." - Henning Wehn
 
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MattRat

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So a government's success is determined by how many people can't afford to shop normally so foodbanks have to be opened??? Really???

YES it would be one hack of a lot better if they opened the shop with shame rather than celebration.
Or not at all. The government's winning move is to make it so you don't need to open food banks in the first place, but I guess that sounds like too much hard work for them....
 

Bletchleyite

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Wait until cost of living gets so difficult that those who donate to food banks can no longer afford to do so, then there won't be any celebrations.

That's not very likely to happen, or at least not without a crisis so severe that every street would look like a shanty town, simply because the range of incomes is so wide. It might harm Waitrose as people switch to Aldi, it won't wipe things out entirely.

"We don't do charity in Germany, we pay taxes. Charity is a failure of Government's responsibilities." - Henning Wehn

This is in some ways very true, though distribution for free/at low cost of surplus waste food (e.g. with short dates) via something looking like a food bank so that people can get it cheaply/free and so avoid waste and have more disposable income is undoubtedly a very good thing, and food banks in that form should absolutely continue.
 

Howardh

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This is in some ways very true, though distribution for free/at low cost of surplus waste food (e.g. with short dates) via something looking like a food bank so that people can get it cheaply/free and so avoid waste and have more disposable income is undoubtedly a very good thing, and food banks in that form should absolutely continue.
To be fair, food banks are akin to charity shops, and I see no shame in using charity shops - more the opposite, recycling is good for the environment (and good for the charities!) But that being said, food - good food - is a basic and food banks are one step above begging for food. Should not happen in a developed country and certainly not for this length of time.

If Labour or the Libdems were in power and foodbanks were appearing all over the place, the Tories would be quick to say "shame and embarrassment for having this to happen" yet they now twist it as a positive.
 

Bletchleyite

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To be fair, food banks are akin to charity shops, and I see no shame in using charity shops - more the opposite, recycling is good for the environment (and good for the charities!) But that being said, food - good food - is a basic and food banks are one step above begging for food. Should not happen in a developed country and certainly not for this length of time.

I think they are fine if it is being used as a combination of waste reduction and increasing disposable income to use on other things. If, as is the case at the moment, they're there to feed people who can't afford to eat, that is a problem.

The "community larder" schemes (one of which I've done a bit of volunteering for) which are typically open to anyone at payment of a small membership fee are maybe the model that's desirable, rather than the more formal, referred ones run by the likes of the Trussell Trust.
 

JamesT

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Wait until cost of living gets so difficult that those who donate to food banks can no longer afford to do so, then there won't be any celebrations.

"We don't do charity in Germany, we pay taxes. Charity is a failure of Government's responsibilities." - Henning Wehn

Looks like the German Government is a failure then - https://www.dw.com/en/dramatic-rise-in-germans-relying-on-food-banks/a-50473042
(Article from 2019 which is pre-Covid, but I would be surprised if they'd massively reduced food bank usage since).
 

nw1

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Did anybody see Gove this morning? Quite disgraceful really, seemingly taking the mickey given the many problems people are facing.


The arrogance of this government knows no bounds. Michael "ex-cocaine user" Gove has of course had a long record of sanctimonious pomposity. First time I heard of the name Michael Gove was around perhaps 2002 or 2003 when as a right-wing hack he put some tripe in the Times about how wonderful it was that students had to spend half their time working, rather than concentrating on their studies.

I would have loved to have been the DJ in that club, put on "White Lines (Don't Do It)" and see what the reaction was... ;)
 
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gabrielhj07

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Did anybody see Gove this morning? Quite disgraceful really, seemingly taking the mickey given the many problems people are facing.

This guy thinks he lives in a sitcom.

You can sort of see the moment in the video when he realises he's on live television... 'what have I done, Boris'll kill me'.
 

brad465

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This is in some ways very true, though distribution for free/at low cost of surplus waste food (e.g. with short dates) via something looking like a food bank so that people can get it cheaply/free and so avoid waste and have more disposable income is undoubtedly a very good thing, and food banks in that form should absolutely continue.
Yes I can see merit in that.
Looks like the German Government is a failure then - https://www.dw.com/en/dramatic-rise-in-germans-relying-on-food-banks/a-50473042
(Article from 2019 which is pre-Covid, but I would be surprised if they'd massively reduced food bank usage since).
I'd go broader and say neoliberalism is the failure here, and in particular the failure to invent a new system fit for the challenges after neoliberalism's collapse in 2008. Instead it was all put on life support effectively, and the surge in foodbanks has largely been post the Financial Crisis, not during the crisis (it certainly didn't go back down after the crisis). Merkel was essentially the modern bastion of neoliberalism in Europe, succeeding its founders Thatcher and Reagan.
 

nw1

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Either way I think he is still attempting to justify things. The principle was that all unnecessary time spent with others had to be minimised. As such, if they were going to eat they should have returned to their hotel rooms to do so (or whatever, e.g. eaten alone at socially distanced desks) and not had a communal meal, whether they were going to work afterwards or not.

This is what they were telling us, so even if he's not broken the law, it's still hypocritical.

Maybe. But if Starmer goes, Johnson (and Sunak) absolutely have to go too. Can't believe Malthouse is so blatant as to apparently, by my reading of the article, imply "one rule for one, one rule for another". To me, it suggests Malthouse is utterly without morals, and if I were his local Tory association I'd be looking at deselection.

Added to that, the rules were of course government-ordered rules, so I would argue that (notwithstanding the fact that Starmer supported them so really ought to have been following them) members of government had a greater duty to follow them than non-government MPs (whether opposition or backbench Tories). I'd certainly argue that the prime minister, of all people, was the one person that absolutely had to follow them more than anyone else. Many of us suffered financially and psychologically as a result of lockdown, to see the Prime Minister flout his own rules is absolutely beyond the pale.
 
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Howardh

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I think they are fine if it is being used as a combination of waste reduction and increasing disposable income to use on other things. If, as is the case at the moment, they're there to feed people who can't afford to eat, that is a problem.

The "community larder" schemes (one of which I've done a bit of volunteering for) which are typically open to anyone at payment of a small membership fee are maybe the model that's desirable, rather than the more formal, referred ones run by the likes of the Trussell Trust.
Being a singleton, if I hadn't a large freezer a lot of food which comes in bulk packs to save on price would go to waste. So I can see a good place for local banks where you can leave food that if you kept would go off - example Lidl don't sell individual potatoes, you have to buy a bag so some might go rotten before you get to them!

Thanks to the freezer, if I buy a pack of bass fish (usually 2 or 3 in) I take one out fresh, and freeze the rest.
 

AM9

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Maybe. But if Starmer goes, Johnson (and Sunak) absolutely have to go too. Can't believe Malthouse is so blatant as to apparently, by my reading of the article, imply "one rule for one, one rule for another". To me, it suggests Malthouse is utterly without morals, and if I were his local Tory association I'd be looking at deselection.

Added to that, the rules were of course government-ordered rules, so I would argue that (notwithstanding Starmer supported them so ought to be following them) members of government had a greater duty to follow them than non-government MPs (whether opposition or backbench Tories). I'd certainly argue that the prime minister, of all people, was the one person that absolutely had to follow them more than anyone else. Many of us suffered financially and psychologically as a result of lockdown, to see the Prime Minister flout his own rules is absolutely beyond the pale.
I think he fits in with the Johnson approach perfectly, - as long as that crowd are still in No. 10, he'll be safe.
 

DynamicSpirit

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So a government's success is determined by how many people can't afford to shop normally so foodbanks have to be opened??? Really???

I didn't say anything like that.

I'm sure we both agree that it would be better if people didn't need to go to foodbanks - but that's an extremely difficult problem to solve - particularly in the light of things like Covid and the Ukraine war - and it's certainly not something that the local council has the power to do much about, so it's hardly the fault of the council leader that foodbanks exist. But the point is you appear to be criticising the guy for participating in an opening ceremony - and that's a daft thing to criticise him for. If he's there, then it seems likely that it will have been on the invitation of those who are responsible for the foodbank, and it would therefore have been impolite/churlish to refuse without good reason.

By all means criticise the Government for any policies that have contributed to the need for foodbanks - but it's not fair to criticise a council leader for participating in ceremonies like this, which tend to be regarded as an important part of the job of being council leader. You're basically complaining about the fact that he's supporting his community and doing his job. That's not on.

YES it would be one hack of a lot better if they opened the shop with shame rather than celebration.

That would have been hugely disrespectful to the people who set up the foodbank, and who I imagine would have wanted a successful opening ceremony to publicise it.
 

Howardh

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I didn't say anything like that.

I'm sure we both agree that it would be better if people didn't need to go to foodbanks - but that's an extremely difficult problem to solve - particularly in the light of things like Covid and the Ukraine war - and it's certainly not something that the local council has the power to do much about, so it's hardly the fault of the council leader that foodbanks exist. But the point is you appear to be criticising the guy for participating in an opening ceremony - and that's a daft thing to criticise him for. If he's there, then it seems likely that it will have been on the invitation of those who are responsible for the foodbank, and it would therefore have been impolite/churlish to refuse without good reason.

By all means criticise the Government for any policies that have contributed to the need for foodbanks - but it's not fair to criticise a council leader for participating in ceremonies like this, which tend to be regarded as an important part of the job of being council leader. You're basically complaining about the fact that he's supporting his community and doing his job. That's not on.



That would have been hugely disrespectful to the people who set up the foodbank, and who I imagine would have wanted a successful opening ceremony to publicise it.
I'm criticising them for making it look like it's something they are proud of. Cutting tape and wearing all the regalia because there's a need to help the poorest in the community? Get away!!

Meanwhile you mentioned covid, and Ukraine. Think you might have missed somethine else there! If we have a full on trade war with our local neighbours, expect food prices to rocket even further if tariffs are to be placed or increased on incoming foodsuffs.
 

brad465

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I'm criticising them for making it look like it's something they are proud of. Cutting tape and wearing all the regalia because there's a need to help the poorest in the community? Get away!!

Meanwhile you mentioned covid, and Ukraine. Think you might have missed something else there! If we have a full on trade war with our local neighbours, expect food prices to rocket even further if tariffs are to be placed or increased on incoming foodsuffs.
There's also the problem of the country being beholden to property developers who not only take over [potential] farmland, but there is lack of consideration into home grown produce and maximising land efficiency. Then factor in our perpetual growth mindset requiring more people and land being built on to drive unsustainable growth, and we're setting ourselves up for worse problems. While we will never be self-sufficient entirely, there's a lot more we can do, but I cannot see the current lot in charge taking it seriously (and other mainstream parties seem to like perpetual growth too which doesn't help).
 

Howardh

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There's also the problem of the country being beholden to property developers who not only take over [potential] farmland, but there is lack of consideration into home grown produce and maximising land efficiency. Then factor in our perpetual growth mindset requiring more people and land being built on to drive unsustainable growth, and we're setting ourselves up for worse problems. While we will never be self-sufficient entirely, there's a lot more we can do, but I cannot see the current lot in charge taking it seriously.
When one looks at google earth; it's obvious how much flat or gently sloping roofs there are, particulary in industrial estates and out-of-town shopping malls. Instead of building on green land, surely authorities should be looking to utilise that space and build dwellings above pre-existing low-rise industry and commerce? And even using that space for crops?

We have a local Tesco megastore which has a flat roof, and it's the size of a football pitch 100m x 80 and could easily become flats and apartments with green space. Why isn't it used like that??
 

brad465

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There have been reports around Sunak potentially moving towards imposing a windfall tax on oil and gas companies. The BBC are saying Sunak isn't ruling it out (although some of this is based on him engaging on Mumsnet), while the Mail's front page tomorrow is suggesting Sunak is ordering officials to examine the possibility of one:


A windfall tax on big oil and gas companies to help tackle the soaring cost of living has not been ruled out, sources close to the chancellor say.
Officials say Rishi Sunak is still open to the idea if firms do not reinvest their bumper profits in the UK.
Current policy is still based on the tax deterring investment in new oil and gas fields and green technologies.
Prime Minister Boris Johnson warned last week it could put future UK energy security at risk.
However, the Treasury is now pointing to comments Rishi Sunak made in an interview with Mumsnet in April in which he said "nothing's ever off the table in these things".
The chancellor warned that if sufficient investment was not forthcoming "then of course that [windfall tax] is something I would look at".
The fact that Treasury officials are using the chancellor's comments in April as the primary text in the study of windfall tax probability is further evidence of the "leeway" they have on the policy, one official said today.
The question remains how much investment would be enough to make the chancellor put the windfall tax stick away?
The chancellor and business secretary Kwasi Kwarteng have previously welcomed pledges by BP to invest £18bn in the UK by the end of 2030 and Shell to invest £20-25bn in the next 10 years. However, neither of their commitments has materially increased as their profits have ballooned.
Shell made a record £7bn in the first three months of this year while BP reported a decade high £5bn.
BP boss Bernard Looney, who famously described the company as a "cash machine", told journalists that it would proceed with all of their UK investments with or without a windfall tax.
Shell boss Ben van Beurden wouldn't be drawn on whether it would scale back investment but did say Shell's programme of investments would be helped by "a stable tax and regulatory environment".
Windfall taxes are not something in this chancellor's economic DNA. Oil and gas prices are extremely volatile and when BP and Shell were making record losses when oil prices collapsed, there was no clamour to help them out.
The boss of Centrica, Chris O'Shea has likened a windfall tax to "burning the furniture to keep warm" - a quick fix but a poor long-term decision.

'Debate not going away'​

But the chronic squeeze on household incomes has seen some perhaps unexpected advocates for a windfall tax.
On Tuesday, Tesco chairman John Allan told the BBC that the case for one was overwhelming in the face of the genuine hardship he was seeing reflected in stores.
An oil and gas industry executive conceded "it's clear this debate is not going away. I don't think the chancellor wants to do it but the political pressure is clearly there"
The evolution of a policy U-turn starts with a few mutations, some of which are shut down and others allowed to persist as it slowly takes a new shape. We are not there yet - but to mix metaphors further, officials seem to be "rolling the pitch" before potentially delivering a change.
One of the biggest problems may be designing the mechanism to impose the tax.
BP and Shell have paid almost zero tax on their North Sea operations over the last few years as prices have been much lower and they are allowed to offset the cost of decommissioning old North Sea facilities against any profits made.
Taxing worldwide income would mean taxing BP and Shell on profits made in places like the US, activities they will have paid US tax on already.
While big global players like BP and Shell could take such a tax in their stride, UK waters are also home to smaller firms who may be deterred from investing by the prospect of a tax raid. Creating a minimum revenue threshold - as the government did with its digital services tax - could exempt them while hitting the deep pockets of the likes of BP and Shell.
The other question is whether it is purely retrospective - and if so, how far back in history do you go. The shareholders of the company now may not be the same as the ones that enjoyed the windfall, so there's a risk in going back too far.
However, tax experts say that if you made it purely retrospective, then you could argue it is no disincentive to future investment as long as it comes with a credible promise it's a one-off occurrence.
It's likely that these are the exact conversations going on inside the Treasury right now.


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I do not currently see such a tax being introduced, and think this is just an attempt to be seen to be doing something about cost of living concerns. The main reason I don't see this actually happening is because the opposition have so strongly demanded and stuck to this proposal, that, regardless of how successful or not it would actually be, to suddenly introduce it would be seen as a massive concession/u-turn, and the Government will have a lot of explaining to do to critics of the proposal. I wonder if it would also lead to manoeuvres against Sunak from within the party.
 

birchesgreen

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It would be wonderful if it happened, imagine the mental gymnastics by Tory MPs who had criticised the Labour plan suddenly finding the idea the best thing since sliced bread.
 

nw1

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It would be wonderful if it happened, imagine the mental gymnastics by Tory MPs who had criticised the Labour plan suddenly finding the idea the best thing since sliced bread.

Sunak trying to say "I'm not really an out-of-touch rich kid, honest".

While the step is welcome, I hope people will not fall for the insincere nature of it in elections.
 

nw1

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Are you drawing a comparison to the "hidden agenda" of Momentum when their stooge last stood at a General Election?

I'm not especially a fan of Momentum either. But I am naturally cynical when this sort of thing happens.
 

david1212

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Wait until cost of living gets so difficult that those who donate to food banks can no longer afford to do so, then there won't be any celebrations.



"We don't do charity in Germany, we pay taxes. Charity is a failure of Government's responsibilities." - Henning Wehn

Or not at all. The government's winning move is to make it so you don't need to open food banks in the first place, but I guess that sounds like too much hard work for them....

To be fair, food banks are akin to charity shops, and I see no shame in using charity shops - more the opposite, recycling is good for the environment (and good for the charities!) But that being said, food - good food - is a basic and food banks are one step above begging for food. Should not happen in a developed country and certainly not for this length of time ....

UK charity shops support a wide range of charities and beneficiaries both UK and abroad. They should not though be a substitute for the UK state providing a basic standard of living i.e. accommodation with essential furnishing and appliances, food, toiletries, clothing. A difficulty is as soon as money be that cash, card or voucher is provided ensuring it is used only for essential items. Food banks overcome that but need to be a state service not a charity.

There should not be pressure to provide items in addition to paying taxation to the state.

Donating useable items rather than wasteful disposal and likewise purchasing is environmentally good so should be encouraged but should not be a substitue for state funding provision. Of course for those receiving the funding purchasing from charity shops makes the funds go further e.g. three clothing items for the same cost as one bought new at lowest price but that must be choice not mandated.

I think they are fine if it is being used as a combination of waste reduction and increasing disposable income to use on other things. If, as is the case at the moment, they're there to feed people who can't afford to eat, that is a problem.

The "community larder" schemes (one of which I've done a bit of volunteering for) which are typically open to anyone at payment of a small membership fee are maybe the model that's desirable, rather than the more formal, referred ones run by the likes of the Trussell Trust.

Agreed food that otherwise would be wasted but useable should be a source of supply to food banks.

Community Larders are a good scheme but ought not to be a formal part of state provision.
 

nw1

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Oh i am sure enough people will

Maybe. But I wish the right-wing rags would stop treating Johnson and Sunak as some sort of higher beings in calling them "Boris" and "Rishi". What is special about these two above all other politicians, besides both being Brexiters and both being rich? They certainly do not deserve this kind of fawning adulation. It was never "John" or "Tony" or "Gordon", or even "David" or "Theresa".
 

Bletchleyite

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Maybe. But I wish the right-wing rags would stop treating Johnson and Sunak as some sort of higher beings in calling them "Boris" and "Rishi". What is special about these two above all other politicians, besides both being Brexiters and both being rich? They certainly do not deserve this kind of fawning adulation. It was never "John" or "Tony" or "Gordon", or even "David" or "Theresa".

I'm happy to call him "Bozza" as a mark of disrespect.
 

DynamicSpirit

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Maybe. But I wish the right-wing rags would stop treating Johnson and Sunak as some sort of higher beings in calling them "Boris" and "Rishi". What is special about these two above all other politicians,
besides both being Brexiters and both being rich? They certainly do not deserve this kind of fawning adulation. It was never "John" or "Tony" or "Gordon", or even "David" or "Theresa".

What's special? That's easy... They have fairly unusual names, which makes it very natural to refer to them by their first names because when you do, everyone knows who you're talking about. Particularly in the case of Boris Johnson because he became so well known from his unsual public persona long before he became PM. That doesn't work for 'John' or 'David' etc. where it becomes a lot more confusing if you don't use the surname. It's really nothing to do with treating them as higher beings or fawning adulation or anything else. It's just people doing what people do - communicating in the easiest way they can.
 

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Nicknames, first names and the like subtly give the impression that they are your friends. Whereas a family name, such as Starmer, is that master you hated at school. That is only part of it: a general trivialisation of important matters is another. (From someone who grew up with Mr Heath and Mr Wilson.)
 

MattRat

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Maybe. But I wish the right-wing rags would stop treating Johnson and Sunak as some sort of higher beings in calling them "Boris" and "Rishi". What is special about these two above all other politicians, besides both being Brexiters and both being rich? They certainly do not deserve this kind of fawning adulation. It was never "John" or "Tony" or "Gordon", or even "David" or "Theresa".
Surprised Blair never went by Tony. He always tried to pretend he was down to earth. Then again, maybe he saw it as a stupid gimmick himself, which is saying something.
 

kristiang85

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I tend to use "Boris" with quotation marks, to ridicule the use of the first name to refer to him.

It's not even his first name... given his full name is Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson, I'd be quite happy to see a nationwide campaign to refer to him simply as Pfeffel, which is what he sounds like he's saying most of the time anyway.
 
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