When will Greater Manchester have a Smartcard?

[thenorthern]

Has there been any updates on when Greater Manchester get a smartcard fares system similar to the Oyster Card?

I know they have been talking about one for a long time but I don't think anything been done yet. Merseyside of course has the Walrus Card, West Yorkshire has the Metro Card but Greater Manchester doesn't seem to have anything.

 

[furnessvale]

Has there been any updates on when Greater Manchester get a smartcard fares system similar to the Oyster Card?

I know they have been talking about one for a long time but I don't think anything been done yet. Merseyside of course has the Walrus Card, West Yorkshire has the Metro Card but Greater Manchester doesn't seem to have anything.

More importantly, is there "any" chance of all these authorities getting their heads together and designing ONE card that can be used anywhere?

 

[thenorthern]

More importantly, is there "any" chance of all these authorities getting their heads together and designing ONE card that can be used anywhere?

It would be useful if they did but I don't think it will happen for ages.

 

[J-2739]

Is it likely that the 'my get me there' card would be expanded to other services, such as the buses?

 

[WatcherZero]

My Get Me There Card can already be used on buses for the System One range of tickets and to swipe on trams for pensioner free travel. They launched an app to purchase and store tram tickets and you will eventually be able to use the card as well as purchase the System One multi-modal tickets.

For rail services a pan northern smart card is under development by Transport for the North and TfGM based on the GMT Card (TfTN is contributing to the research and development costs and will then pay an annual access fee on behalf of the other PTE's to help cover running costs since it legally cant own the system itself) which should also support multi-modal on local metros e.g. Merseyrail, Metrolink, T&W, Supertram (and may have some form of plusbus functionality). A few dozen of the independent bus companies in the North have also expressed interest in licensing the system to piggyback for use on their buses since they don't have the resources to develop their own smartcards unlike arriva/first/stagecoach. Interestingly Northern and TPE are banned by franchise agreement from developing their own proprietary smartcards so as not to duplicate the TfTN version.

 

[Philip]

Why does Manchester need one? Station booking offices sell a full range of day and rover tickets, such as wayfarers.

 

[Starmill]

Why does Manchester need one? Station booking offices sell a full range of day and rover tickets, such as wayfarers.

Well it already has one. So...


The main reason is because it's quicker - especially on buses, which are very slow significantly because of people messing about with change.

 

[Bungle965]

Well it already has one. So...


The main reason is because it's quicker - especially on buses, which are very slow significantly because of people messing about with change.

There has also been a lackluster attitude to the implementation of contactless payment, with Stagecoach only just getting round to it in the last few months.
First have `committed to it`which means some time in this decade.... hopefully.
All of this leads to passnegers not knowing if they have the right amount of cash and the slowing down of the journey.

Sam

 

[Bungle965]

Is it likely that the 'my get me there' card would be expanded to other services, such as the buses?

The `get me there card` already works on buses, where you can purchase a 1 day, 7 day or 28 day Travelcard valid on pretty much every bus company in Greater Manchester.
Are you thinking of the trams?
Sam

 

[thenorthern]

The `get me there card` already works on buses, where you can purchase a 1 day, 7 day or 28 day Travelcard valid on pretty much every bus company in Greater Manchester.
Are you thinking of the trams?
Sam

Trams and trains, having a smart card just makes life easier as there is a cap on it and it means not having to purchase tickets all the time.

 

[Geeves]

Smart cards and Oyster card technology is already out of date and expensive

The future will see a system using the persons own contactless bankcard like we see in London now. The savings in card creation and back office computer systems are significant.

 

[glbotu]

I mean, the bus bill will help a lot with this, right, because once Greater Manchester is a "Metro Area", after their mayoral elections, they can start franchising bus operations to specify stuff like PIS equipment and smartcard implementation. While contactless is the way forwards, there will always remain a non-trivial portion of the population who are resistant and would be more comfortable with a "smart card" than a contactless payment card. Also, things like freedom passes etc, which means you'll still need a "joint" system, which accepts contactless and some form of local "smart card".

 

[urbophile]

Also, things like freedom passes etc, which means you'll still need a "joint" system, which accepts contactless and some form of local "smart card".

Exactly. And similarly, when I go to London I can have my railcard discount loaded onto an Oyster card, but using contactless doesn't give me that discount. I don't know how technologically feasible it would be to make that possible, but until then...

 

[work-traveller]

The Swift Card system has been operating in the West Midlands for a few years now on the tram and buses. It started being rolled out to rail travellers within the TfWM area last year and is now being issued to all season/DD rail ticket holders (within the TfWM area) - I received my smart card last week and used it for the first this this morning. Nice and handy as I didn't need to take it out of my wallet to pass through the New Street Station ticket barriers.

The cards don't state their functionality (just your photo and a unique card number), so believe you can expand/contract the services it covers, i.e. rail, bus, tram.

 

[swt_passenger]

Smart cards and Oyster card technology is already out of date and expensive

The future will see a system using the persons own contactless bankcard like we see in London now. The savings in card creation and back office computer systems are significant.

However TfL have definitely said they will also maintain a conventional PAYG card for those who do not wish to use contactless.

 

[miami]

Exactly. And similarly, when I go to London I can have my railcard discount loaded onto an Oyster card, but using contactless doesn't give me that discount. I don't know how technologically feasible it would be to make that possible, but until then...

Based on London, your contactless card is billed at the end of the day, and can be linked to an online account. Simply add the discount to the account.

The challenge is then to ensure that the person entitled to the discount is the person using the card. If a list of discount-applied card-numbers were uploaded to each reader (same as blacklisted cards are), the checker could demand to see the photocard.

For those who don't have/want to use contactless bank cards, it would be better to simply stock pre-paid credit cards rather than trying to invent a system that tries to keep track of the balance on the actual card. If a card goes more than £2 into the red, send a text message warning about it, and add it to a blacklist for the next day. If it's topped up within a couple of hours, remove it from the blacklist.

 

[rebmcr]

Exactly. And similarly, when I go to London I can have my railcard discount loaded onto an Oyster card, but using contactless doesn't give me that discount. I don't know how technologically feasible it would be to make that possible, but until then...

Based on London, your contactless card is billed at the end of the day, and can be linked to an online account. Simply add the discount to the account.

The challenge is then to ensure that the person entitled to the discount is the person using the card. If a list of discount-applied card-numbers were uploaded to each reader (same as blacklisted cards are), the checker could demand to see the photocard.

For those who don't have/want to use contactless bank cards, it would be better to simply stock pre-paid credit cards rather than trying to invent a system that tries to keep track of the balance on the actual card. If a card goes more than £2 into the red, send a text message warning about it, and add it to a blacklist for the next day. If it's topped up within a couple of hours, remove it from the blacklist.

Current roadmap is:

1. Introduce contactless payments [DONE]
2. Introduce daily fare capping for contactless [DONE]
3. Introduce daily fare capping for Oyster [DONE]
4. Introduce weekly fare capping for Contactless [DONE]
5. Migrate Oyster back-office to the newer system that already handles Contactless [IN PROGRESS]
6. Introduce weekly fare capping for Oyster [DEPENDENT ON 5.]
7. Introduce discount codes & Travelcard linking for Contactless [PLANNED FOR 2018-ISH]

 

[miami]

Current roadmap is:

1. Introduce contactless payments [DONE]
2. Introduce daily fare capping for contactless [DONE]
3. Introduce daily fare capping for Oyster [DONE]
4. Introduce weekly fare capping for Contactless [DONE]
5. Migrate Oyster back-office to the newer system that already handles Contactless [IN PROGRESS]
6. Introduce weekly fare capping for Oyster [DEPENDENT ON 5.]
7. Introduce discount codes & Travelcard linking for Contactless [PLANNED FOR 2018-ISH]

Excellent, ploughing forward, successfully. Makes the rest of the country look a shambles!

Well at least we can use contactless to buy metrolink tickets in Manchester, which isn't too much more of an hassle than touching in and out.

Buses in manchester - or indeed anywhere in the country from my experience - aren't fit for purpose for occasional use (or based on the cost regular use - it's cheaper in many cases to get an uber!), even if they took contactless they'd still be a ridiculous price.

 

[thenorthern]

An important but often forgotten thing about the Oyster card is how secure it is I think they do this by not storing the card balance on the card but rather on a central database. Think about it though if there was a hack for smart cards published online it would spread like wildfire and cause a lot of people to travel without paying.

I do wonder if less secure smart cards could have this problem in the future.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Oyster balance is stored both on the card and centrally.

 

[WatcherZero]

I wouldn't touch a contactless bank card with a bargepole, they can be read from several meters away simply with a laptop and a parabolic antenna, you could easily scoop up the data to make fraudulent transactions.

Then you have the bull with the chip and pin that pre-authorise transactions below £30 and you then become responsible for any transactions from a stolen card even if you report it because they cant remotely de-authorise the card until the thieves try and spend a larger amount.

 

[Domh245]

I wouldn't touch a contactless bank card with a bargepole, they can be read from several meters away simply with a laptop and a parabolic antenna, you could easily scoop up the data to make fraudulent transactions.

Then you have the bull with the chip and pin that pre-authorise transactions below £30 and you then become responsible for any transactions from a stolen card even if you report it because they cant remotely de-authorise the card until the thieves try and spend a larger amount.

Quite easily solved with an RFID blocking sleeve (or some tinfoil if you are feeling particularly DIY-y). I got one free from MetroBank when I opened an account with them

 

[Bletchleyite]

The cardholder is NOT liable for fraudulent contactless transactions - it's actually the retailer.

 

[thenorthern]

I have a metal wallet with RFID blocker in it which is useful as my Glasgow Subway card seems to set off the anti theft devices at some shops.

 

[Joe Paxton]

...
Then you have the bull with the chip and pin that pre-authorise transactions below £30 and you then become responsible for any transactions from a stolen card even if you report it because they cant remotely de-authorise the card until the thieves try and spend a larger amount.

Wrong.

 

[WatcherZero]

Whole fuss with Halifax with them last year. Yes you remain the person responsible for spotting fraudulent transactions made with the card rather than the Bank even after the card is cancelled, the bank will refund them but only if you report them and the stolen card can be used months or even years after you receive a replacement and think the matter is sorted.

 

[miami]

Whole fuss with Halifax with them last year. Yes you remain the person responsible for spotting fraudulent transactions made with the card rather than the Bank even after the card is cancelled, the bank will refund them but only if you report them and the stolen card can be used months or even years after you receive a replacement and think the matter is sorted.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...ning-cards-can-be-used-after-you-cancel-them/

An investigation by consumer website moneysavingexpert.com discovered cancelled cards being used up to eight months later by criminals to buy items in shops.

People whose contactless cards have been lost or stolen are being told to comb through months or years's worth of statements to check for fraudulent transactions which may not have been flagged by their bank.

 

[mrmartin]

I wouldn't touch a contactless bank card with a bargepole, they can be read from several meters away simply with a laptop and a parabolic antenna, you could easily scoop up the data to make fraudulent transactions.

Then you have the bull with the chip and pin that pre-authorise transactions below £30 and you then become responsible for any transactions from a stolen card even if you report it because they cant remotely de-authorise the card until the thieves try and spend a larger amount.

I assume you never touched debit/credit cards before chip & pin, then? Considering people would often walk off with your card to run it/install a skimmer and could easily clone it, at which point you're totally stuffed.

I think I'd take the security of contactless over that? But I'll be sure to watch out for people with laptops and parabolic antenna.

 

[mrmartin]

However TfL have definitely said they will also maintain a conventional PAYG card for those who do not wish to use contactless.

For now. I definitely don't see it lasting. Once travelcards and other products can be associated with contactless I really can't see the system lasting much longer.

I think what will happen is Oyster will become a brand of prepaid (contactless) debit cards with TfL, that potentially you can only use on transport services. Customers won't really notice, but it will save an absolute fortune in maintaining a legacy pretty bespoke system.

PS: I think people underestimate how much of a difference contactless has made. Only recently there was giant queues for oyster machines at stations (especially at peak times). They're nearly always deserted now.

 

[rebmcr]

I wouldn't touch a contactless bank card with a bargepole, they can be read from several meters away simply with a laptop and a parabolic antenna, you could easily scoop up the data to make fraudulent transactions.

This is also incorrect. The hardware encryption key never leaves the chip inside the card -- the payment terminal instead gives the card some numeric token(s) to encrypt/decrypt, and only the result is passed back as proof that the card is legitimate.

This defeats both 'playback attacks' since the payload will be different every transaction, and also prevents any attempts to clone the card without specialist, bulky semiconductor x-ray equipment.