When will flying Scotsman return to single chimney

[Steam loco]

Will flying Scotsmen return to single chimney

 

[Spartacus]

If the NRM ever decide to restore it with no intention of using it on main line excusions I expect it will then, but that's a rather big if, otherwise it's the intention of keeping it's double Kylchap, the performance difference on a congested railway where it can be hard to find steam paths is too much to ignore.

 

[Monty]

Will flying Scotsmen return to single chimney

It's highly unlikely she ever will, not while she is still operational at least.

 

[AndyY1951]

It would be extremely silly to downgrade a locomotive to an earlier less capable configuration IMHO.

 

[Steam loco]

I hate the smoke deflectors that ruin the front end

 

[FOCTOC]

I hate the smoke deflectors that ruin the front end

Well you and everyone else had the opportunity to buy it and so with it whatever you wanted......

 

[AndyY1951]

How can the smoke deflectors 'ruin the front end'? They do the job they were designed to do admirably, lifting the smoke and steam away from obscuring the view from the cab, a significant operational improvement.

 

[alexl92]

I do think that aesthetically they look pretty rubbish - for me they spoil Gresley’s design. But I know they are a) necessary and b) authentic, so there is little worth complaining.

 

[MarkyT]

The style of deflector fitted to the A3s was very popular around the world at the time, with a number of European railways adopting it and Germany (both sides) even retrofitting older locos previously equipped with full depth deflectors. Japan used it, and one of the Australian states, just off the top of my head. It was very easy to simply bolt on the sides of the smokebox and didn't overly obstruct access around the front of the loco on the footplate. The main reason it was popular was that it was extremely effective. The other alternative at the time would have been A1/A2 style, but it was inevitable there would have been deflectors of some kind once the double Kylchap had been fitted. The A4s required no such modification on equipping with Kylchaps, as the front end wedge shape was already an excellent smoke lifter. The exhaust and deflector mod was a quick cost effective bolt-on for a fleet nearing the end of its career, to provide some effective backup and keep the product quality up to standard while BR slowly attempted the troublesome changeover to diesel power. It was enlightened and agile thinking by engineers and managers of the time, and the fleet was at the absolute zenith of its performance during this period. Note it was the considerable licensing cost of the patent that dissuaded the LNER from wider fitment of the Kylchap before WW2, although they were already convinced it was a very good thing. During the war Thompson was able to use the exhaust widely in his rebuild experiments and limited new build programme, as by then the patent had expired, and post war, Peppercorn wasted no time in confirming it for all his A1s and some A2s. Flying Scotsman's appearance today captures the heady, emotional atmosphere at the end of steam. A thoroughbred at the peak of performance yet about to be destroyed had it not been for the intervention of Alan Pegler, pictured heroically aboard his steed at Kings Cross on the day he completed purchase. Not only is the appearance authentic, but it is also within more peoples' living memory than any authentic LNER condition. The performance benefits of this configuration also happily fit very well with the rigours of running on the modern mainline railway.

 

[The Crab]

It's matter of opinion of course, but I much prefer the double chimney with deflectors as they give a good impression of power. On the other hand a clean single chimney engine is really elegant.

 

[AndyY1951]

Well said, MarkyT!
Keep the locomotive exactly as it is, in its best-performing configuration.

 

[Monty]

The style of deflector fitted to the A3s was very popular around the world at the time, with a number of European railways adopting it and Germany (both sides) even retrofitting older locos previously equipped with full depth deflectors. Japan used it, and one of the Australian states, just off the top of my head. It was very easy to simply bolt on the sides of the smokebox and didn't overly obstruct access around the front of the loco on the footplate. The main reason it was popular was that it was extremely effective. The other alternative at the time would have been A1/A2 style, but it was inevitable there would have been deflectors of some kind once the double Kylchap had been fitted. The A4s required no such modification on equipping with Kylchaps, as the front end wedge shape was already an excellent smoke lifter. The exhaust and deflector mod was a quick cost effective bolt-on for a fleet nearing the end of its career, to provide some effective backup and keep the product quality up to standard while BR slowly attempted the troublesome changeover to diesel power. It was enlightened and agile thinking by engineers and managers of the time, and the fleet was at the absolute zenith of its performance during this period. Note it was the considerable licensing cost of the patent that dissuaded the LNER from wider fitment of the Kylchap before WW2, although they were already convinced it was a very good thing. During the war Thompson was able to use the exhaust widely in his rebuild experiments and limited new build programme, as by then the patent had expired, and post war, Peppercorn wasted no time in confirming it for all his A1s and some A2s. Flying Scotsman's appearance today captures the heady, emotional atmosphere at the end of steam. A thoroughbred at the peak of performance yet about to be destroyed had it not been for the intervention of Alan Pegler, pictured heroically aboard his steed at Kings Cross on the day he completed purchase. Not only is the appearance authentic, but it is also within more peoples' living memory than any authentic LNER condition. The performance benefits of this configuration also happily fit very well with the rigours of running on the modern mainline railway.

Interestingly enough, A3 60097 'Humorist' was a locomotive selective by Gresley for a number of experiments including the use of a double Kylchap long before it became standard practice on BR(E) and after a number of odd looking mini deflectors she was fitted with 'A1' style deflectors though they look like they are a bit smaller than the ones found on Blue Peter and Tornado.

https://rcts.zenfolio.com/steam-lner/a-4-6-2/a3/hA89014F3#ha89014f3

 

[Robin Edwards]

Another fan here to keep FS exactly as is - sorry to any Gresely apple-green purists out there!

 

[MarkyT]

Interestingly enough, A3 60097 'Humorist' was a locomotive selective by Gresley for a number of experiments including the use of a double Kylchap long before it became standard practice on BR(E) and after a number of odd looking mini deflectors she was fitted with 'A1' style deflectors though they look like they are a bit smaller than the ones found on Blue Peter and Tornado.

https://rcts.zenfolio.com/steam-lner/a-4-6-2/a3/hA89014F3#ha89014f3

I think there would have been widespread double Kychap fitting under LNER once the patent ran out in the early 1940s, had not the war intervened, and probably that style of deflector would have been added too, as the various small wings and troughs tried on Humorist were reportedly largely useless. The problem before this was that the high tech exhaust design, although acknowledged to be highly efficacious in improving performance and efficiency, could add something like 10% to the building cost of a new loco, almost all of which was the patent license fee. Perhaps unsurprisingly the board preferred to save that, or have an extra 10% of locos in the fleet for the same price!

 

[Steam loco]

I thought Ian Riley want to return flying Scotsmen back to lner condition with single chimney

 

[Darandio]

I thought Ian Riley want to return flying Scotsmen back to lner condition with single chimney

Is he going to buy it then?

 

[Steam loco]

No but I think that's what he want's to do I heard somewhere

 

[AndyY1951]

Any of us can declare what we want to do with a locomotive owned by somebody else...……………….
But 'I think …..I heard somewhere' doesn't carry much weight!

 

[Skymonster]

It will never find a place back in my heart (which it had when I was a kid) until the deflectors are removed, the single chimney returns, it's painted apple green, and numbered 4472. However, as others have pointed out, most of us have little means of influencing these matters.

 

[Steam loco]

It will never find a place back in my heart (which it had when I was a kid) until the deflectors are removed, the single chimney returns, it's painted apple green, and numbered 4472. However, as others have pointed out, most of us have little means of influencing these matters.

I totally agree with you the smoke delflecters ruin the locomotive I used to like Scotsman but the proper Scotsmen the nrm won't let us see very sad

 

[70014IronDuke]

I wonder what the designer would want, could he be consulted today?

Personally, I used to like the German-style deflectors on the A3s - they made them stand out from all other British locos - and the actual shape was slightly different to German locos to boot, IIRC. Would have been interesting fitting them to a Stanier Princess, had they gone for a double-chimney version

Anway, back to today. If the single-chimney version were actually more efficient, I coould support it - but as it is, you'd be spending money to create a less-effcicient, lower-power locomotive. Bonkers, I'd say. And something tells me HNG would agree. My bet is he'd opt for the most efficient engineering solution. I mean, would he want to revert to the 1920 design, back to the short-travel valves, just because that was the original arrrangement?

 

[UP13]

Would you rather have LNER configuration as a static display or BR configuration as an operation locomotive.

Assuming they are the only options what would people pick?

 

[Steam loco]

LNER apple green single chimney running

 

[Cowley]

I wonder what the designer would want, could he be consulted today?

Personally, I used to like the German-style deflectors on the A3s - they made them stand out from all other British locos - and the actual shape was slightly different to German locos to boot, IIRC. Would have been interesting fitting them to a Stanier Princess, had they gone for a double-chimney version

Anway, back to today. If the single-chimney version were actually more efficient, I coould support it - but as it is, you'd be spending money to create a less-effcicient, lower-power locomotive. Bonkers, I'd say. And something tells me HNG would agree. My bet is he'd opt for the most efficient engineering solution. I mean, would he want to revert to the 1920 design, back to the short-travel valves, just because that was the original arrrangement?

Absolutely right.

 

[UP13]

LNER apple green single chimney running

They'll never spend the money to make it less efficient.

If you had to make a choice between static single chimney or operational kylchap, which would it be?

 

[MarkyT]

I suppose for most people now, living memory is of the loco in preservation, during much of which time it was in Apple Green. Tony Marchington turned out Flying Scotsman with an LNER paint job although it was otherwise in a modified BR condition, including kylchap and deflectors, which was a compromise to 'authenticity' clearly, but at least showed off the loco in its popular remembered glory as far as the colour scheme went, while maintaining the highest possible mainline performance. Unsurprisingly, the more historically minded NRM chose the later more authentic condition in full. The LNER scheme is more stridently coloured and ornamented, and the green and white lined wheels stand out, emphasizing their size. Such a bright old fashioned livery with its traditional coach lining probably evokes stronger general nostalgic feelings among the general public than the drabness of the BR dark green, although that is also a fairly traditional livery, with boiler band pin-stripping for instance, and derived from the GWR, although clearly without its predecessor's polished metal flourishes! It is dark though. The unrelenting black below the footplate combines with the big front end and cab roof such that only about a third of a side view of the loco is (dark) green. Personally I like locos in plain dark colours, even all black, and I think too much fiddly ornamentation can detract from the naked power of the machine. Others feel differently clearly. I don't know what the answer is. You can't please everyone. I think most of the general public probably love the LNER colour scheme while simulateously not caring or perhaps even noticing the front end chimney arrangement, so perhaps Marchington's compromise was enlightened, but of course the purists were in apoplexy. You just can't win, it's worse than Brexit! I think the A1 Trust were enlightened in electing to rotate liveries regularly in the early years. I really liked the blue. I didn't expect to, as I had no previous frame of reference, but it really grew on me. Of course with Tornado they're far less constrained by heritage and conservation concerns!

 

[AndyY1951]

I can't understand why anybody would want to downgrade a piece of working machinery to an earlier less capable form, just because some people think it looked prettier?

 

[DarloRich]

I can't understand why anybody would want to downgrade a piece of working machinery to an earlier less capable form, just because some people think it looked prettier?

because "enthusiast"