When will excessive announcements cease?

[Via Bank]

What a ridiculous, risk averse and litigation obsessed culture we have. Treat people as children and they will behave as children. i am sick of these inane patronising announcements about taking care of my belongings, etc. They'll be telling people it is unsafe to leap out of train windows - oh, of course you aren't trusted to open windows these days!

I think the cultural problem we have is "announcement makes it better" rather than removing the need for the announcement at source. Sometimes this is infra-related. The tactile paving one, for instance. There's no excuse for station platforms not having tactiles in 2023, other than 'chronic underinvestment.' The ridiculous Great Western "mind the gap between the train and the platform and take care when stepping down from the train"? If we'd standardised on platform height a few decades ago and ordered stock with level boarding, that would be largely unnecessary except on severely curved platforms. "Don't take luggage onto the escalator?" Maybe if lifts weren't poorly-signed, too few in number, and at the end of long dingy passageways, people would be happy to use them more readily.

A lot of them are problems of the operators' own making. Byzantine level operator or brand-specific ticket rules and complex validity restrictions create more nonsense that the operator is then obligated to explain to a general public that only really cares about getting to their destination on time and without being PF'd.

True, the excessive announcements are a problem (and there genuinely is an issue with the quality and clarity of the information—badly adjusted speakers, excessive wordiness, bad zoning, etc.) but I think they're really a symptom of a wider lack of customer focus that goes back decades.

 

[nanstallon]

I think the cultural problem we have is "announcement makes it better" rather than removing the need for the announcement at source. Sometimes this is infra-related. The tactile paving one, for instance. There's no excuse for station platforms not having tactiles in 2023, other than 'chronic underinvestment.' The ridiculous Great Western "mind the gap between the train and the platform and take care when stepping down from the train"? If we'd standardised on platform height a few decades ago and ordered stock with level boarding, that would be largely unnecessary except on severely curved platforms. "Don't take luggage onto the escalator?" Maybe if lifts weren't poorly-signed, too few in number, and at the end of long dingy passageways, people would be happy to use them more readily.

A lot of them are problems of the operators' own making. Byzantine level operator or brand-specific ticket rules and complex validity restrictions create more nonsense that the operator is then obligated to explain to a general public that only really cares about getting to their destination on time and without being PF'd.

True, the excessive announcements are a problem (and there genuinely is an issue with the quality and clarity of the information—badly adjusted speakers, excessive wordiness, bad zoning, etc.) but I think they're really a symptom of a wider lack of customer focus that goes back decades.

Yes, this is part and parcel of the railway mentality that the customer is there for their benefit, not that the railway should serve the community. Just as in the 19th century stations were built where it suited the railway to place them, and it was up to the customer to walk a couple of miles from the village to get to the station.

 

[zwk500]

True, the excessive announcements are a problem (and there genuinely is an issue with the quality and clarity of the information—badly adjusted speakers, excessive wordiness, bad zoning, etc.) but I think they're really a symptom of a wider lack of customer focus that goes back decades.

Not so much lack of customer focus, but lack of money to do the things that would really make it customer friendly.

 

[Parallel]

One of the bugbears for me is the lifts announcement some TOCs use as part of their Worldline system. The script is:

‘Please note. Some of the lifts at (station x) are currently out of service. Please speak to a member of staff if you need further assistance.’

It could literally be cut to say ‘Some lifts at (station x) are out of use. Please speak to staff if you require assistance’

I don’t like the use of ‘further assistance’. It’s like saying ‘if you still need MORE help’ as if you’re being an inconvenience. And to top it off Anne’s version of it is very poorly recorded, and patronising as she says it so slowly.

 

[AM9]

One of the bugbears for me is the lifts announcement some TOCs use as part of their Worldline system. The script is:

‘Please note. Some of the lifts at (station x) are currently out of service. Please speak to a member of staff if you need further assistance.’

It could literally be cut to say ‘Some lifts at (station x) are out of use. Please speak to staff if you require assistance’

I don’t like the use of ‘further assistance’. It’s like saying ‘if you still need MORE help’ as if you’re being an inconvenience. And to top it off Anne’s version of it is very poorly recorded, and patronising as she says it so slowly.

You are making your life misery by letting little things like that get to you.

 

[Parallel]

You are making your life misery by letting little things like that get to you.

It doesn’t get to me, and isn’t a bugbear in the context of life. I just think it could be both better worded and more concise.

 

[bramling]

You are making your life misery by letting little things like that get to you.

On that basis surely nothing in life would ever improve? Which is quite salient at the present time as the general consensus is most indicators in this country are sliding away in the wrong direction.

 

[AM9]

On that basis surely nothing in life would ever improve? Which is quite salient at the present time as the general consensus is most indicators in this country are sliding away in the wrong direction.

Getting uptight about something like the exact wording of a public information announcement doen't help anybody, nor will it hasten changes to the annoucement. It's doubtful if moaning about it on social media will chane anything either. So a lack of self control in ignoring things that one can do nothing about is preventing one from moving on to enjoy other things in life.

 

[bramling]

Getting uptight about something like the exact wording of a public information announcement doen't help anybody, nor will it hasten changes to the annoucement. It's doubtful if moaning about it on social media will chane anything either. So a lack of self control in ignoring things that one can do nothing about is preventing one from moving on to enjoy other things in life.

I get what you’re saying, but that doesn’t make it right. It seems nowadays one is increasingly advised to wear ear plugs in certain public spaces. One shouldn’t have to.

What can happen in practice is those of us with with the ability and opportunity sometimes simply switch off *all* PA announcements when practicable. It is quite conspicuous on the occasions when one is on a train with no announcements at all just how relaxing and refreshing the experience is.

 

[zwk500]

I get what you’re saying, but that doesn’t make it right. It seems nowadays one is increasingly advised to wear ear plugs in certain public spaces. One shouldn’t have to.

What can happen in practice is those of us with with the ability and opportunity sometimes simply switch off *all* PA announcements when practicable. It is quite conspicuous on the occasions when one is on a train with no announcements at all just how relaxing and refreshing the experience is.

But there's a difference between saying 'there are far too many announcements and it means the actually important information is unclear', a perfectly valid complaint which should be pursued, and saying 'why don't they cut 3 words from this announcement' which is not worth fussing about.

 

[Falcon1200]

The tactile paving one, for instance. There's no excuse for station platforms not having tactiles in 2023, other than 'chronic underinvestment.'

Surely a reason, rather than an excuse, is the huge amount of disruptive work involved in digging up and replacing platform surfaces near their edge? Despite that, from what I have observed many stations have now been treated, and of course that work should be completed as quickly as possible.

If we'd standardised on platform height a few decades ago and ordered stock with level boarding, that would be largely unnecessary except on severely curved platforms.

That would have been, and still would be, an incredibly complex and costly process, and there would still be a gap of some sort between platform and train! I also seriously doubt whether the railway would ever have sufficient funds to rebuild every station platform in the country.

Just as in the 19th century stations were built where it suited the railway to place them, and it was up to the customer to walk a couple of miles from the village to get to the station.

Being rather facetious, but it is also a valid point, stations were built where the railway was, and lines were not, and could not, be built so as to have a station in the centre of every village they came close to.

 

[43066]

Yes, this is part and parcel of the railway mentality that the customer is there for their benefit, not that the railway should serve the community. Just as in the 19th century stations were built where it suited the railway to place them, and it was up to the customer to walk a couple of miles from the village to get to the station.

So excessive announcements in 2023 (at least some of which are imposed by the DfT) are a sign of a “railway mentality” that has persisted since the 19th century.

That’s honestly one of the oddest suggestions I’ve ever seen on this forum - and that’s really saying something!

 

[Via Bank]

One of the bugbears for me is the lifts announcement some TOCs use as part of their Worldline system. The script is:

‘Please note. Some of the lifts at (station x) are currently out of service. Please speak to a member of staff if you need further assistance.’

It could literally be cut to say ‘Some lifts at (station x) are out of use. Please speak to staff if you require assistance’

I don’t like the use of ‘further assistance’. It’s like saying ‘if you still need MORE help’ as if you’re being an inconvenience. And to top it off Anne’s version of it is very poorly recorded, and patronising as she says it so slowly.

I think this is a classic example of something where, yes, the wording is bad, but also… what exactly is someone supposed to do with this information? Use the help point? Find a member of staff on the station and risk missing their train (which is minutes from departure, if that)? Find a member of staff on the train (assuming there is one, and you're mobile enough to move up & down the train to find them?) Find a member of staff at their destination? Will there even be anyone there? What would the member of staff do - book a taxi? Wheel them across the tracks? What does “some of the lifts” even mean and does that even affect their journey?

There’s a general feeling that “more information good” without a thought as to whether it’s actually helpful or relevant to the people it’s supposed to be for.

An even more egregious example we often find in London is tacking TfL service information on the end of every train announcement, even if the train is on its way out of London and doesn’t call at any interchanges. What is the point of it? Who’s it supposed to be helping?

That would have been, and still would be, an incredibly complex and costly process, and there would still be a gap of some sort between platform and train! I also seriously doubt whether the railway would ever have sufficient funds to rebuild every station platform in the country.

I urge you to re-read where I said that we could, and indeed should, have standardised on platform and train floor heights decades ago—definitely before the turn of the millennium wave of new stock orders. We didn’t (be that down to the mess of privatisation, or a lack of political leadership, or poor project management, or constant cutbacks and descoping in the name of “value for money”) and so we still have an extant hazard that shouldn’t even need to be there.

 

[Jimini]

If you thought the "when using the stairs, please use the handrail, and take care" nonsense was annoying at Swindon, try standing there for hours in yesterday's disruption hearing that going off in the background every 30 seconds

 

[DC1989]

Slightly off topic but many companies now just put up a sign when something is complained about or if there is an issue. My last company used to go mad for putting signs up - I found it absurd. The bathroom full of signs - please wash your hands, please flush the toilet etc

At the entrance to the flats where I live they recently put up a metal sign saying - 'please do not use fireworks in this area'. A hilariously specific sign that I can think must have only been put up as someone complained once about some kids setting off fireworks. But these days you have to be seen as doing something. 1 person complains about fireworks? Resolution - Sign. The box is ticked and everyone is happy

Announcements on the railway are similar I think (although they do have their own crazy signage in some places...I saw on twitter this weekend a photo of stairs at paddington, with each row having a set of works - please use the lifts etc)

 

[Couru]

When using the stairs, please use the handrail, and take care.
When using the stairs, please use the handrail, and take care.
When using the stairs, please use the handrail, and take care.

I get that they're doing it so that they don't get sued if the stairs are wet or icy, but for the love of god you don't need to repeat it every thirty seconds! At least make them motion-sensored or something. I feel sorry for the staff that have to hear that intonation for hours on end

 

[Runningaround]

Surely a reason, rather than an excuse, is the huge amount of disruptive work involved in digging up and replacing platform surfaces near their edge? Despite that, from what I have observed many stations have now been treated, and of course that work should be completed as quickly as possible.



That would have been, and still would be, an incredibly complex and costly process, and there would still be a gap of some sort between platform and train! I also seriously doubt whether the railway would ever have sufficient funds to rebuild every station platform in the country.

There are far more platforms with gaps than not, but does it need to be announced at every stop? I guess most disembarking will mind the gap they don't need to be warned to do something they do anyway.
We don't get announcements saying there are kerbs on the edges of pavements?

 

[Runningaround]

When using the stairs, please use the handrail, and take care.
When using the stairs, please use the handrail, and take care.
When using the stairs, please use the handrail, and take care.

I get that they're doing it so that they don't get sued if the stairs are wet or icy, but for the love of god you don't need to repeat it every thirty seconds! At least make them motion-sensored or something. I feel sorry for the staff that have to hear that intonation for hours on end

Does the announcement absolve them into doing much about the icy stairs?
''We told you to take care'' but you still slipped on the stairs we failed to grit by not holding the handrail.

I've been on plenty of platforms with marble type surfaces where the cleaner has gone overboard with the detergent or stood at the urinals and found my legs parting due to the floor not being rinsed properly. ''The cleaners not done their job properly please take care when walking around''

 

[AM9]

When using the stairs, please use the handrail, and take care.
When using the stairs, please use the handrail, and take care.
When using the stairs, please use the handrail, and take care.

I get that they're doing it so that they don't get sued if the stairs are wet or icy, but for the love of god you don't need to repeat it every thirty seconds! At least make them motion-sensored or something. I feel sorry for the staff that have to hear that intonation for hours on end

The staff just ignore it and get on with their day. Some people here really should try that for their own sanity. Perpetual ranting won't change it at all.

 

[dosxuk]

At least make them motion-sensored or something.

The motion sensor triggered ones are even worse. Most of them just repeat as soon as the next person arrives and they're not currently playing - get a steady enough flow of people and it just doesn't stop repeating the same message over-and-over.

 

[bramling]

The staff just ignore it and get on with their day. Some people here really should try that for their own sanity. Perpetual ranting won't change it at all.

I can assure you that excessive announcements cause issues for staff as well.

For example, one could be in the middle of a safety-critical telephone or radio conversation when an announcement comes blaring out, causing issues for one or both parties hearing or understanding the comms. As well as making things take longer and increasing the risk of a miscommunication, it also adds stress to situations.

This is a particular issue on TFL where the quantity and volume of announcements can be very intrusive especially in tunnel stations.

Full kudos to those staff who have the confidence to hit the off button and rebel against this nonsense.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Mar 2023 ==

So excessive announcements in 2023 (at least some of which are imposed by the DfT) are a sign of a “railway mentality” that has persisted since the 19th century.

I’d say it’s an example of weak management, for whom announcements are an easy win. They’re something that is quite easy to measure - you can either have an automated system that itself collates stats on what messages are being broadcast, or have mystery shoppers going round with a clipboard putting ticks in boxes. For a dullard manager this is a very easy way of “demonstrating” so-called improvement, as they can simply show an increase in the number of messages going out. Whether any of actually achieves anything useful doesn’t really come in to it.

I do wonder if there are actually real-world examples where lack of a warning announcement has played a part in a legal case. Signage always seems to be much more of a factor in my experience, as well as eliminating or mitigating hazards in the first place. For something like a slip on a slippery floor, I imagine the litigation process would be much more interested in the cleaning regime rather than whether announcements were being played.

 

[al78]

Surely a reason, rather than an excuse, is the huge amount of disruptive work involved in digging up and replacing platform surfaces near their edge? Despite that, from what I have observed many stations have now been treated, and of course that work should be completed as quickly as possible.



That would have been, and still would be, an incredibly complex and costly process, and there would still be a gap of some sort between platform and train! I also seriously doubt whether the railway would ever have sufficient funds to rebuild every station platform in the country.



Being rather facetious, but it is also a valid point, stations were built where the railway was, and lines were not, and could not, be built so as to have a station in the centre of every village they came close to.

Isn't the reason Cambridge station is distant from the city center because the university objected to a station being built close to the university, and they didn't want their students being distracted with visits to London?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Mar 2023 ==

When using the stairs, please use the handrail, and take care.
When using the stairs, please use the handrail, and take care.
When using the stairs, please use the handrail, and take care.

I get that they're doing it so that they don't get sued if the stairs are wet or icy, but for the love of god you don't need to repeat it every thirty seconds! At least make them motion-sensored or something. I feel sorry for the staff that have to hear that intonation for hours on end

In an ideal world, humans should be trusted to have the intelligence to work out that stairs or the ground may be slippy in wet or freezing conditions and that taking extra care would be a good idea. In the real world, it appears many people have poor spatial awareness so need reminding about the fundamentals.

 

[airantraigh]

Isn't the reason Cambridge station is distant from the city center because the university objected to a station being built close to the university, and they didn't want their students being distracted with visits to London?

Ahh now today i learnt the real reason why the st andrews branch was axed (we still find our ways but the busses to and from leuchars station are on occasion so packed you can't get on the first one that comes)

 

[Falcon1200]

I urge you to re-read where I said that we could, and indeed should, have standardised on platform and train floor heights decades ago

Standardising platform heights would have had to start, in many cases, when those platforms were first built - Often not even in the last century!

 

[bramling]

In an ideal world, humans should be trusted to have the intelligence to work out that stairs or the ground may be slippy in wet or freezing conditions and that taking extra care would be a good idea. In the real world, it appears many people have poor spatial awareness so need reminding about the fundamentals.

Perhaps if they were given the opportunity to learn the hard way then there wouldn’t need to be a need for such reminders of fundamentals. If this resulted in a better level of spatial awareness then this could only really be a good thing, especially seeing the particularly dumb way some people seem to carry on since Covid.

 

[Bikeman78]

I think the cultural problem we have is "announcement makes it better" rather than removing the need for the announcement at source. Sometimes this is infra-related.

I can definitely relate to this. One of the few places I have encountered a slippery platform is the South Eastern side at St Pancras. It's a modern station so why use such shiny materials for the surface? No number of announcements will make is less slippery.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Mar 2023 ==

One of the bugbears for me is the lifts announcement some TOCs use as part of their Worldline system. The script is:

‘Please note. Some of the lifts at (station x) are currently out of service. Please speak to a member of staff if you need further assistance.’

It could literally be cut to say ‘Some lifts at (station x) are out of use. Please speak to staff if you require assistance’

I don’t like the use of ‘further assistance’. It’s like saying ‘if you still need MORE help’ as if you’re being an inconvenience. And to top it off Anne’s version of it is very poorly recorded, and patronising as she says it so slowly.

Those announcements are constant on Southern now. If nothing else, it highlights how bad railway lifts are. Who is one supposed to ask for help on a DOO train? Some lifts are at East Croydon are currently out of service? Great, which ones?

 

[dm1]

There is and has been a standard platform height and offset for a long time now. The only problem is that most existing platforms don't conform to it, and even worse, many new platforms have been built that deliberately ignored it and put them too high (Thameslink core, crossrail central section, Heathrow tunnels).

For decades the legacy train manufacturers insisted that level boarding was not possible at the standard height of 915mm, until Stadler came along and demonstrated effortlessly that it is, and despite those same manufacturers selling trains with level boarding at even lower heights on the continent without issue (without even mentioning S-stock).

It's nothing more than poor procurement, poor project managment and accessibility legislation that is not strict enough on this subject.

That would have been, and still would be, an incredibly complex and costly process, and there would still be a gap of some sort between platform and train! I also seriously doubt whether the railway would ever have sufficient funds to rebuild every station platform in the country.

Switzerland standardised their platform height on standard guage at 55cm surprisingly recently (1980s), as part of the development of the Zürich S-Bahn network. Accessibility legislation that requires access to public transport independently and without staff assistance, with a deadline of December 2023 has meant that a huge number of platforms have been raised over the last few decades, and more are still to come.

The Disability Discrimination Act (DDA) | SBB

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I bet I'll hear the usual arguments of "we're not Switzerland", "we don't have enough money", and "that would never work here" - but it demonstrates that where there's a will, it can be done - and there the cost was seen as technical debt for not standardising earlier, and as a penalty for not thinking about accessibility before then.

To bring this post back on topic - so many announcements would be rendered completely unnecessary, were level boarding and other basic accessibility measures were in place, as well as in general if the quality of design were better and things weren't always done for the lowest possible construction price, regardless of maintenance costs and usability. A footbridge over a line on an embankment high enough that a subway would have been level, just to save a single blockade to install a box tunnel - seriously?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resto...ion_on_the_day_of_its_opening._23-05-2022.jpg

How many accidents has that decision alone caused, that no amount of announcements will be able to prevent?

 

[AM9]

There is and has been a standard platform height and offset for a long time now. The only problem is that most existing platforms don't conform to it, and even worse, many new platforms have been built that deliberately ignored it and put them too high (Thameslink core, crossrail central section, Heathrow tunnels).

Actually, the TL core platforms are basically what has been there before (apart from St Pancras which was built to comply with the other core platforms. The part that you say is "too high" is the Harrington Hump, located to align with the doors of the two centre cars where the accessibility provision has been made. These provide good stepless boarding. The price to pay for that is that only class 700s and equivalent dimensioned stock with the same floor height can pass through the core.

 

[fgwrich]

I’m not sure if anyone has mentioned it yet (quite likely), but I’d like to add GWRs HSTs into the mix for the amount of endless waffling now included. Sure, some of it may be helpful, but does it need to go on at great length now. As well as the usual This is xxx, Do not try to board the train while the doors are closing, the next station is, this is a great western railway service to xxx” we now seem to have announcements about helping passengers on and off the train, interchanges (as in change here for rail services to xxx and local bus services to xx, xx and xx, and the location of bus and taxi stops outside said station.

It certainly hit the level of when is enough, too much. Especially when you have a set with an overbearingly loud PA that vibrates every time it’s in use.

 

[43172]

I’m not sure if anyone has mentioned it yet (quite likely), but I’d like to add GWRs HSTs into the mix for the amount of endless waffling now included. Sure, some of it may be helpful, but does it need to go on at great length now. As well as the usual This is xxx, Do not try to board the train while the doors are closing, the next station is, this is a great western railway service to xxx” we now seem to have announcements about helping passengers on and off the train, interchanges (as in change here for rail services to xxx and local bus services to xx, xx and xx, and the location of bus and taxi stops outside said station.

It certainly hit the level of when is enough, too much. Especially when you have a set with an overbearingly loud PA that vibrates every time it’s in use.

Those announcements are a common thing outside of the 80x fleet, not just limited to the HST's. There were also (but i can't remember if it's still used) announcements mentioning that for more detail for buses to visit the transport for cornwall website buses. It does seem to be include as much information as possible, which is good for those who rarely travel by rail or those on holiday and don't know the area well, but there is always the risk of giving too much information and risk causing confusion.