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You're missing the point here, possibly deliberately. The vast majority of announcements either tell passengers what they already know or things that they don't need to know, "see it say it sort it" and "mind the gap" being classic examples.
The only things passengers need to know on a train is where it's going, where it's stopping and, if there's disruption, what's the cause and how will it affect your journey. All else is irrelevant.
See highlighted text in italics, - that is your opinion. Added to that, passengers do not need to know the cause of disruption - only its impact on their journey. They might be interested in the cause but that's just curiosity, - there's no absolute need.
There a several posts here from members saying that they value specific announcements that others in there wisdom maintain that nobody does. The railway is run for all passengers including those with disabilities and other special needs, so not just the knowledgeable few who don't consider the needs of others.
See highlighted text in italics, - that is your opinion. Added to that, passengers do not need to know the cause of disruption - only its impact on their journey. They might be interested in the cause but that's just curiosity, - there's no absolute need.
Knowing what the cause is does matter to regular passengers. A seasoned commuter knows, ball park, how long to expect to be delayed. The difference between going for a pint or a cab.
I agree with your point entirely though. Different people need different info, andore detail if they are not a regular user.
Knowing what the cause is does matter to regular passengers. A seasoned commuter knows, ball park, how long to expect to be delayed. The difference between going for a pint or a cab.
I agree with your point entirely though. Different people need different info, andore detail if they are not a regular user.
See highlighted text in italics, - that is your opinion. Added to that, passengers do not need to know the cause of disruption - only its impact on their journey. They might be interested in the cause but that's just curiosity, - there's no absolute need.
There a several posts here from members saying that they value specific announcements that others in there wisdom maintain that nobody does. The railway is run for all passengers including those with disabilities and other special needs, so not just the knowledgeable few who don't consider the needs of others.
Not sure anyone’s disputing that different people might have different preferences or even needs, however this doesn’t invalidate the question as to whether announcements are a good, let alone the best, way to achieve this.
As I said elsewhere, given we know that a lot of people either don’t listen to announcements or in come cases perhaps do listen but don’t take any notice, it does seem that a lot of what goes out is pretty pointless in achieving passing over information. If indeed that’s the objective of course, the cynical view is that many announcements are for scorecard purposes.
Not sure anyone’s disputing that different people might have different preferences or even needs, however this doesn’t invalidate the question as to whether announcements are a good, let alone the best, way to achieve this.
As I said elsewhere, given we know that a lot of people either don’t listen to announcements or in come cases perhaps do listen but don’t take any notice, it does seem that a lot of what goes out is pretty pointless in achieving passing over information. If indeed that’s the objective of course, the cynical view is that many announcements are for scorecard purposes.
I would say that many of the 'pointless' announcements are there to protect the TOC in the event of a passenger's loss through failing to heed safety warnings. A court wouldn't be very sympathetic to a passenger that ignored the gap between the train and the platform, or overtravelled when clear announcements had been made.
That's why those who suggest that announcements that are broadcast both on the PA and the PIS should be on the PIS only because it inconveniences them are ignored. Of course, it's those passengers' right to ignore the announcements, at their peril.
Shapps only mentioned the issue because he thought it would benefit his political profile (with some of the complainers) at no cost to him.
I would say that many of the 'pointless' announcements are there to protect the TOC in the event of a passenger's loss through failing to heed safety warnings. A court wouldn't be very sympathetic to a passenger that ignored the gap between the train and the platform, or overtravelled when clear announcements had been made.
That's why those who suggest that announcements that are broadcast both on the PA and the PIS should be on the PIS only because it inconveniences them are ignored. Of course, it's those passengers' right to ignore the announcements, at their peril.
Shapps only mentioned the issue because he thought it would benefit his political profile (with some of the complainers) at no cost to him.
Whilst I don’t doubt you are right with this assessment, subjecting everyone to rubbish simply to address the issue of a few self-entitled chancers is hardly how things should be. How about giving everyone a safety briefing at the point where they buy their ticket, with a tick box to confirm they have read it? Naturally with the machine able to read the text aloud for those who desire.
Whilst I don’t doubt you are right with this assessment, subjecting everyone to rubbish simply to address the issue of a few self-entitled chancers is hardly how things should be. How about giving everyone a safety briefing at the point where they buy their ticket, with a tick box to confirm they have read it? Naturally with the machine able to read the text aloud for those who desire.
Those unfamiliar with the network, especially those with young children, who are older, who have physical mobility restrictions or are visually impaired are hardly a 'few self-entitled chancers'. Not everybody commutes the same journey 5 days a week and knows to their journey to an inch.
I've been on a couple of 710s recently that had no announcements on. I must admit - it was an absolute joy of a ride. I also had a Victoria Line train last week with no annoucements on either (and this was even better) - the scrolling displays in the train showing that it was a train to Brixton when we were going to Walthamstow made me assume that something hadn't been configured correctly although I have no idea how these things are set up.
I've been on a couple of 710s recently that had no announcements on. I must admit - it was an absolute joy of a ride. I also had a Victoria Line train last week with no annoucements on either (and this was even better) - the scrolling displays in the train showing that it was a train to Brixton when we were going to Walthamstow made me assume that something hadn't been configured correctly although I have no idea how these things are set up.
Well if you found that a problem, how would a blind person be expected to have confidence in the service when "something hadn't been configured correctly"?
Those unfamiliar with the network, especially those with young children, who are older, who have physical mobility restrictions or are visually impaired are hardly a 'few self-entitled chancers'. Not everybody commutes the same journey 5 days a week and knows to their journey to an inch.
I wasn’t referring to that; I was alluding to those who make a claim after having some kind of mishap which they ought to have been able to reasonably foresee (for example slipping when the platform is wet).
As regards unfamiliar users, this takes us back to the question as to whether announcements are the best - or even a good - way of passing information, given then so few people seem to listen to them.
I wasn’t referring to that; I was alluding to those who make a claim after having some kind of mishap which they ought to have been able to reasonably foresee (for example slipping when the platform is wet).
So if somebody boards a train where there is level boarding at a fully covered station and gets off after dark at a poorly lit open air station with a large gap and drop to the platform, it's their fault if they land poorly. I don't think a TOC's lawyers would subject the company to prosecution under health and safety legislation and potential large compensation claims with a corporate attitude like that.
As regards unfamiliar users, this takes us back to the question as to whether announcements are the best - or even a good - way of passing information, given then so few people seem to listen to them.
OK, maybe the railway shouldn't offer any information when things change (including disruption). That's tough on those who are just ordinary passengers, (maybe first-timers or infrequent leisure travellers), but at least it won't upset those regulars who do know (or just think that they know). Sounds like a case of 'I'm OK - tough luck for anybody else'.
Those unfamiliar with the network, especially those with young children, who are older, who have physical mobility restrictions or are visually impaired are hardly a 'few self-entitled chancers'. Not everybody commutes the same journey 5 days a week and knows to their journey to an inch.
Okay, but what's the chances of them being able to sort out the actual information from the relentless garbage? Certainly anybody who isn't very familiar with British English is going to struggle.
I wasn’t referring to that; I was alluding to those who make a claim after having some kind of mishap which they ought to have been able to reasonably foresee (for example slipping when the platform is wet).
As regards unfamiliar users, this takes us back to the question as to whether announcements are the best - or even a good - way of passing information, given then so few people seem to listen to them.
Announcements are a good way to pass information. The key question is getting the quality of the announcements (including, quantity, information conveyed, and relevance) right for the passengers they're meant to help.
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Okay, but what's the chances of them being able to sort out the actual information from the relentless garbage? Certainly anybody who isn't very familiar with British English is going to struggle.
Totally with you - the current announcements are on a good day about a 5/10. Add in bad weather or a few delays and it quickly drops to a 3/10 or worse. But this is why I've been labouring the 'quality over quantity' point. Classic example is when they added on the 'your next direct service is expected to be...' when delays happen. At a major station this information may be worthwhile. At a station where all trains stop on the same lines, call at the same stations and can't overtake it isn't, so just tell me when the next train is expected.
"See it, Say it, Sorted" was never really meant to be a "we'll get better at handling customer complaints" - it's about giving people confidence to report things that look suspicious or threatening to the security of the railway. Of course, there is a link between the two...
The posters have a picture of a bloke going through a door. I have no idea who is or is not permitted to go through staff only doors. Not everyone wears a uniform. There is pretty much zero chance I'll be reporting anything.
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Is the tactile paving announcement really a good solution to an issue, though? The blind passenger might not hear the announcement for any number of reasons, at which point things are straight back to how they were originally.
Seems more a case of typical weak elements of industry management unable to come up with any solution better than an announcement for a given problem.
Well quite. If the announcement goes off every 10 minutes there is plenty of scope for someone to arrive at the station and board their train without hearing it. Anyone that has the confidence and ability to be out and about on their own will most likely be able to cope on a station. There aren't any repeated announcements out on the streets that they will have used to get to the station.
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Also no inane security messages and such like - indeed the fact we’ve had this oppressive stuff for my entire adult life so far rather gives me the feeling that those with nefarious intent have kind of won by influencing our long-term way of life.
Crikey, I must be getting old. I can remember trains without any PA at all. Though, thinking about it, that was nearly 30 years ago. The Belgians had non PA trains until 2013. On the one occasion I was delayed on such a train, the guard walked the length of the train and explained the problem to everyone. He was even happy to speak English.
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So if somebody boards a train where there is level boarding at a fully covered station and gets off after dark at a poorly lit open air station with a large gap and drop to the platform, it's their fault if they land poorly. I don't think a TOC's lawyers would subject the company to prosecution under health and safety legislation and potential large compensation claims with a corporate attitude like that.
How would such a person cope outside the station? There are puddles, potholes, tree roots, thousands of slippery leaves, uneven paving slabs, to name just a few potential hazards. Clearly the councils aren't worried about being taken to court. Or perhaps they feel that the occasional court case is cheaper than dealing with any of the problems?
Yesterday morning the auto-babble at Sheffield advised at least 3 times in the 5 mins I was there "due to today's wet weather, surfaces may be slippery". It had not rained since the day before and surfaces were bone dry . Maybe it was played so that we didn't think the PA had failed.
And so can I. A blissful, peaceful environment (fellow passengers permitting of course) which has been destroyed forever by the mostly-ignored/blanked out auto-babble.
I'm lucky enough to have an all-stations free pass but even when train travel is free the incessant claptrap/piffle makes it an endurance test. I've taken to booking National Express Coaches ('not free') to avoid it.
Special mention to the announcements on the 197s, first in Welsh then in English. The doors were opened and closed by the time it had finished telling people that it was the TfW service to Chester and the next stop will be Frodsham.
The 175 I caught later was so refreshing with basic announcements at where the train is going and what the next stop is
Those announcements are utterly dreadful. They go on and on forever. They have such long pauses between the words and sentences which drags them out even longer than necessary. Even on the trains which operate solely within England they still play the Welsh then the English even though Welsh is completely unnecessary. At most stations the Welsh goes on for so long that by time the English plays the train has already left the station.
I do not mind Eryl Jones but the new Elin Llwyd voice on the 197/230/231/398/756 is far too harsh and piercing too. It is impossible to block out the announcements. I really do not like them.
I will miss the nice simple Ruth Mitchell announcements on the 150/153/158/175/769 once they go. I think ATW and TFW have got the announcements just right on these trains. They are nice and simple and just tell you what you need and i really like the polite "thank you" at the end of every announcement.
Consider this scenario; you've arranged to meet someone at the station and, as your train approaches, it gets held at a red signal for a couple of minutes.
If the guard announces the delay is due to awaiting a free platform, you know it's only going to be a few minutes so no action is required.
If the guard announces the delay is due to a signalling or points failure you know it could be anything up to an hour so you ring the person you're meeting to say you'll be late.
If the guard announces the delay is due to a fatality you might as well cancel your meeting altogether as you won't be going anywhere for several hours.
So yes, the average passenger does need to know the cause of the delay as this will give them some idea of the delay length and enable them to change their plans accordingly.
Consider this scenario; you've arranged to meet someone at the station and, as your train approaches, it gets held at a red signal for a couple of minutes.
If the guard announces the delay is due to awaiting a free platform, you know it's only going to be a few minutes so no action is required.
If the guard announces the delay is due to a signalling or points failure you know it could be anything up to an hour so you ring the person you're meeting to say you'll be late.
If the guard announces the delay is due to a fatality you might as well cancel your meeting altogether as you won't be going anywhere for several hours.
So yes, the average passenger does need to know the cause of the delay as this will give them some idea of the delay length and enable them to change their plans accordingly.
And an announcement of the expected delay is sufficient. Why do so many posters here think that they can judge the impact of each operating wrinkle better than those actually making the decisions with more information than any passenger has?
And an announcement of the expected delay is sufficient. Why do so many posters here think that they can judge the impact of each operating wrinkle better than those actually making the decisions with more information than any passenger has?
Completely disagree with the premise of this. Experience shows it’s highly likely that a moderately clued-up passenger can judge more accurately.
Some staff just pluck a figure out of thin air in order to keep people happy, but also communication within the railway is such that staff on the ground simply don’t always know / get told / understand exactly what is happening, so any estimate given is on occasions insufficiently well informed to be of value. In most cases the only people with the complete picture of what’s going on will be control and signallers, yet in many cases it won’t be either of these making the announcement
Completely disagree with the premise of this. Experience shows it’s highly likely that a moderately clued-up passenger can judge more accurately.
Some staff just pluck a figure out of thin air in order to keep people happy, but also communication within the railway is such that staff on the ground simply don’t always know / get told / understand exactly what is happening, so any estimate given is on occasions insufficiently well informed to be of value.
Note that I said those actually making the decisions. In many instances of disruption over my travelling years, any information has been questioned by self-appointed 'expert' travellers to the extent that they argue with those giving out information, so I'm not surprised that those on the ground just repeat what they've been told rather than bother to justify the information given to arrogant know-all passengers. That is probably even worse today as a half-baked view of the situation that is dreamt up with the aid of apps like Realtime Trains* is the last thing that busy station staff need.
* this is not a criticism of RTT etc., - I use it regularly myself and make travel decisions based on its infomation, but waving it around in front of staff is not the way to get cooperation from others when they are dealing with problems.
‘This is a platform alteration. The 1914 to Manchester Piccadilly will now depart from Platform 7‘ four times consecutively tonight at Sheffield. I think we got the idea.
See highlighted text in italics, - that is your opinion. Added to that, passengers do not need to know the cause of disruption - only its impact on their journey. They might be interested in the cause but that's just curiosity, - there's no absolute need.
There a several posts here from members saying that they value specific announcements that others in there wisdom maintain that nobody does. The railway is run for all passengers including those with disabilities and other special needs, so not just the knowledgeable few who don't consider the needs of others.
Actually it isn't opinion; a report/survey by Transport Focus (I think) a few years back said that overall passengers would like to know the reason for the delay.
Note that I said those actually making the decisions. In many instances of disruption over my travelling years, any information has been questioned by self-appointed 'expert' travellers to the extent that they argue with those giving out information, so I'm not surprised that those on the ground just repeat what they've been told rather than bother to justify the information given to arrogant know-all passengers. That is probably even worse today as a half-baked view of the situation that is dreamt up with the aid of apps like Realtime Trains* is the last thing that busy station staff need.
* this is not a criticism of RTT etc., - I use it regularly myself and make travel decisions based on its infomation, but waving it around in front of staff is not the way to get cooperation from others when they are dealing with problems.
Whilst I don’t really disagree with the above, it’s rather unfortunate that a good proportion of the time someone can look at something like the OTT maps (these paint slightly more of a picture than RTTT), and not only have access to more information, but in some cases likely be better able to interpret it than your average station staff. On this the industry does itself no favours.
The difficulty is that those *making* the decisions generally aren’t the ones disseminating the information to the end-user. Indeed during disruption such people would be way to busy anyway.
Actually it isn't opinion; a report/survey by Transport Focus (I think) a few years back said that overall passengers would like to know the reason for the delay.
Explaing the reason for a delay is part of treating pasengers with respect. It's good customer care. Good service isn't just about what there is a 'need' for. It's about making customers feel valued.
The westbound Elizabeth line platform at Tottenham Court Road tonight was a non stop barrage of announcements from a customer service assistant. Repeating the calling pattern of every train, announcing planned closures for those arriving on every service. It was so bad I had to get on the next service and travel to Bond Street to wait for the next Heathrow service.
Yes, passengers on trains delayed by a fatality for example are much more understanding and therefore sympathetic to the railway, and to staff involved, both in the incident itself and those on their train. So hopefully reducing the chances of anyone on board kicking off.
Explaining the reason for a delay is part of treating passengers with respect. It's good customer care. Good service isn't just about what there is a 'need' for. It's about making customers feel valued.
However, if there is a prize for the most pointless on-train announcement, Scotrail must be among the league-leaders: On 4-car Class 380 sets working Glasgow South electric routes, there is an automated 'this train may be longer than the platform at certain stations, announcements will be made in the relevant carriages' message. No: the trains are fully accommodated at every single station they stop at!
Former transport minister Norman Baker has won a small victory for commuters driven to distraction by the rail announcement: “See it. Say it. Sorted.” The ex-Liberal Democrat MP was on a train from Lewes to London Victoria, a journey of just over an hour, when he was subjected to the irritating edict – by his count – “every bloody seven minutes”. Baker complained to the civil servant in charge of the messages, who agreed that they will now only be played twice – at Victoria and Gatwick. Baker says he has adopted his own approach to the message. “Hear it. Bin it. Sorted.”
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. Maybe it was played so that we didn't think the PA had failed.
