When Virgin Trains are too busy to serve first class...

[Jonfun]

1ST Advance fares on the Liverpool to London route are regularly more expensive at the weekend than on weekdays when booked at short notice. £140 (single!) isn't unusual. I put this down to the underprovision of first class accommodation since I never came across these crazy fares (crazy because upgrades are available for £15) before Coach G was removed on the 9-car trains.

I'm referring to the fact you can pay a relatively small first class upgrade for the journey. Nobody would realistically pay 140 quid for an advance single, the Saver Return is only about 80 quid, then add on a weekend first upgrade either way and it's still cheaper.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Beyond the wit of man, presumably, for the trolley people to ask to see the ticket and see if it has 1st on it or not?

Not exactly difficult, is it?

That's how XC always do it IME

 

[jon0844]

Yeah, but perhaps it's not their job and as such they can't be asked to do it?

 

[Mag_seven]

Just as a sidelight I have noticed on Sundays that on the busier services from Penzance GWR are inclined to keep the 2 1/2 first class configuration of old

I thought there were no 2 1/2 first sets left on GWR?

 

[Bungle965]

I seem to remember a few weeks ago on the first off peak train off Manchester Piccadilly towards London Euston first class was completely de-classifed leaving Manchester as it was so busy. First class passengers were told that there would be not breakfasts for them or catering at all and that they should send in there tickets and would receive a FULL refund not just the diffrence between first and standard. The TM of the train get repeating that it was for the safety of the passengers, which was fair enough as it was really busy. I wonder also if it was because of all of the people in the vestibules of the train meaning that the 390 could not tilt.
Sam

 

[CC 72100]

I thought there were no 2 1/2 first sets left on GWR?

Officially there are not. In reality there are a couple of sets with 'odd' combinations in terms of first class - one I was on last week was formed of 7 standard and one first class vehicles.

Any 2.5 first class sets are the product of a fleet which is still being fine tuned, it is not meant to be that way, and all retail briefs are geared towards having at least 6 standard vehicles.

 

[PermitToTravel]

I wonder also if it was because of all of the people in the vestibules of the train meaning that the 390 could not tilt.
Sam

AIUI the train can't tilt if there's too much weight in any one carriage, including in the aisles not just the vestibules

 

[185]

Beyond the wit of man, presumably, for the trolley people to ask to see the ticket and see if it has 1st on it or not?

Not exactly difficult, is it?

Can of worms.

Seeing it happen at Transpennine Express, a few scenarios occur including:

- Packed train: Trolley steward asks for ticket, drunk bloke produces standard, 1st class bloke next to him kicks off asking why is he sat here, bang, WW3.
- Staff knowledge: Passenger produces standard ticket, full fare on weekend valid in 1st Class on some tocs. Cue passenger getting slung out by trolley staff. WW3.

If a declassification occurs, the toc should at least refund the non-1st part of the journey. In customer service terms, I'd suggest TOCs should provide a new journey voucher as an alternative to an often-marginal refund.

If catering staff are on, there should be some way for passengers to obtain complementary drink/food from the bar or a static trolley.

 

[Late Trains uk]

AIUI the train can't tilt if there's too much weight in any one carriage, including in the aisles not just the vestibules

Do they discreetly manage the overweight passengers? Virgin are one Rail company that has experience of such a thing.

 

[Jonfun]

- Packed train: Trolley steward asks for ticket, drunk bloke produces standard, 1st class bloke next to him kicks off asking why is he sat here, bang, WW3.
- Staff knowledge: Passenger produces standard ticket, full fare on weekend valid in 1st Class on some tocs. Cue passenger getting slung out by trolley staff. WW3

Don't forget, you're basing your views on TPE, and with respect to the Skytrak catering guys, the training isn't anywhere near as comprehensive as TOCs who employ and train their staff in house.

I would argue that knowing what is and isn't valid in First Class is one of - if not *THE* - most basic pieces of information a First Class Host needs to know! Diffusing volatile situations and dealing with drunk pax is again one of the skills required whether you work as a Guard, Gateline Attendant, Catering Crew, or Cleaner.

My personal opinion is that unless a decision has been made that First is declassified, an effort should be made to enforce it, as it isn't fair on the people who have paid sometimes hundreds of pounds extra if staff are seen to be turning a blind eye.

 

[neilb62]

AIUI the train can't tilt if there's too much weight in any one carriage, including in the aisles not just the vestibules

The overload trips at 200% laden, we then temporarily isolate the tilt and continue at normal line speed whilst the TM tries to move folk around to even the load. The TMS screen in the cab has a page to show the percentage weight in each coach.

 

[PermitToTravel]

- Packed train: Trolley steward asks for ticket, drunk bloke produces standard, 1st class bloke next to him kicks off asking why is he sat here, bang, WW3.

I agree with your other point, but wonder how different this is really to when a guard is doing the inspection?

Do they discreetly manage the overweight passengers? Virgin are one Rail company that has experience of such a thing.

It's an issue of too many people, not too large people.

The overload trips at 200% laden, we then temporarily isolate the tilt and continue at normal line speed whilst the TM tries to move folk around to even the load. The TMS screen in the cab has a page to show the percentage weight in each coach.

Thanks for the info

 

[Jonfun]

I agree with your other point

So you don't think that knowing what tickets are valid in First Class or not is something that a First Class Host is likely to know?

My mind boggles on this forum sometimes, 99% of the other time rail staff are expected to have an encyclopaedic knowledge of restriction cods, the routing guide...

 

[PermitToTravel]

Would you honestly expect them to be confident with all the corner cases? VT have guards and RPIs who aren't familiar with some of the free upgrade rules

 

[sarahj]

So you don't think that knowing what tickets are valid in First Class or not is something that a First Class Host is likely to know?

My mind boggles on this forum sometimes, 99% of the other time rail staff are expected to have an encyclopaedic knowledge of restriction cods, the routing guide...

It is quite odd. Some folks spend days searching for a cheap ticket with odd destinations and validity to save a few quid and then moan when the ticket checker questions them. More training needed!!!! We would never be out on trains, just learning every route and ticket possible. And then someone who spends their whole life looking for them turns up on a Southampton to Thurso train with a single from Hamble to Bedhampton that due to putting maps, AFT and CRA, PDE,DRT and adding rule 58942 and 656843 means it valid as an anytime return in first class.

 

[BestWestern]

I thought there were no 2 1/2 first sets left on GWR?

There are none intentionally set up that way; only as an occasional consequence of maintenance work and such.

In the event of non-enforcement of First Class for whatever reason, it is good practise to advise that complementaries are still available from the buffet counter on production of a First Class ticket. This should, in my view, still apply even if declassification has taken place and those ticket holders are entitled to be refunded, as it demonstrates a degree of additional customer service. Announcements to the effect that both the refund and the complementaries are available is considerably better than a 'tough luck' attitude. However it is also true that sending the trolley through when there is likely to be a significant number of standard class ticket holders, or those wishing but unable to upgrade, is not a good idea.

 

[jon0844]

If someone who wishes to upgrade can't pay, but by the same token isn't made to go back to standard then it's not exactly a problem they don't get free tea and coffee. In fact, if you're not asked to pay £5-15 to upgrade then you can afford to buy tea if you want.

And if staff aren't expected to know what's a valid ticket (say being able to use a standard ticket at weekends) then why would the cafe bar staff know and better?

 

[Bletchleyite]

If someone who wishes to upgrade can't pay, but by the same token isn't made to go back to standard then it's not exactly a problem they don't get free tea and coffee.

If there was a trolley service at a fee I would agree. But Coach C is a very long way away from Coach K.

 

[Senex]

It is quite odd. Some folks spend days searching for a cheap ticket with odd destinations and validity to save a few quid and then moan when the ticket checker questions them. More training needed!!!! We would never be out on trains, just learning every route and ticket possible. And then someone who spends their whole life looking for them turns up on a Southampton to Thurso train with a single from Hamble to Bedhampton that due to putting maps, AFT and CRA, PDE,DRT and adding rule 58942 and 656843 means it valid as an anytime return in first class.

The problem is that the British TOCs seem to love finding ever more complicated fares structures -- so complex that no-one can be expected to carry all the detail in their head. But those very passenger-unfriendly complications challenge the "customer" to find a best deal, just as with other shopping experiences -- and if the customer can find their way through the complexity maze to something the TOC hadn't thought of, good luck to them. But just pity the poor staff member who has to be customer-friendly whilst being strictly revenue-protective. The only solution is to stop treating rail travel as a supermarket product and go back to treating it as a service.

 

[Minilad]

It is quite odd. Some folks spend days searching for a cheap ticket with odd destinations and validity to save a few quid and then moan when the ticket checker questions them. More training needed!!!! We would never be out on trains, just learning every route and ticket possible. And then someone who spends their whole life looking for them turns up on a Southampton to Thurso train with a single from Hamble to Bedhampton that due to putting maps, AFT and CRA, PDE,DRT and adding rule 58942 and 656843 means it valid as an anytime return in first class.

If this forum had a like button this would get 100 likes from me

 

[Starmill]

If this forum had a like button this would get 100 likes from me

You bring the complexity and we bring the expertise to deal with it Somebody has to!

 

[Minilad]

You bring the complexity and we bring the expertise to deal with it Somebody has to!

Ah but you see it doesn't really matter how many loopholes and dodges you all use. Because at the end of the day I still get paid

 

[SaveECRewards]

On East Coast they only don't run the first class service if there's a safety reason not to and unlike West Coast they operate it on every service.

Revenue never comes into it. I've been on trains before where the guard hasn't been able to make to first class due to standard being busy and there was never a suggestion that they'd not be able to do the first class service.

As far as I know this has always been this way (at least from GNER onwards). If I was a paying customer I'd want to get the expected service whenever feasible.

Of course I also understand that no refund is due if it can't be delivered as complimentary items are subject to availability but they do factor into people's choices into whether to travel first class or not.

Taking the most customer friendly option should be the default approach.

 

[Starmill]

Ah but you see it doesn't really matter how many loopholes and dodges you all use. Because at the end of the day I still get paid

Trust me I couldn't be more pleased than if the net fares I pay covered your salary!