When train carriages have reached the end :-(

[Howardh]

Watching a video last night of an old underground train being removed from service and off to the scrapyard made me wonder - if the train is beyond repair/refurbishment to carry on in service, how many of them find other uses?

Thinking I'm sure I've seen photos of old units in people's gardens etc, but are any old carriages used for public use, say as classroom additions for busy schools, temporary accommodation for hard-up councils, or even sent off to disaster zones where people simply need basic shelter?

Has anyone any examples of scrapped carriages still in static use?

 

[anthony263]

I think there are two 1983 stock carriages somewhere on top of a building in East London somwehre near Shoreditch.

LU have also donated on C stock carriage to a college in London

 

[Howardh]

I think there are two 1983 stock carriages somewhere on top of a building in East London somwehre near Shoreditch.

LU have also donated on C stock carriage to a college in London

To be used as a classroom I presume?

 

[DJL]

With regards to moving a carriage to a disaster zone. The cost to move it might turn out to be more than the cost of building something from scratch which offers a similar (or better) degree of shelter.

 

[starrymarkb]

It depends on what's in the coaches. C Stock is riddled with Asbestos hence TfL are requiring the trains to be scrapped. I wonder if the donated carriage is the Hungarian built replacement for the stock bombed in 2005 (which would have been built to modern standards without Asbestos)

 

[Howardh]

It depends on what's in the coaches. C Stock is riddled with Asbestos hence TfL are requiring the trains to be scrapped. I wonder if the donated carriage is the Hungarian built replacement for the stock bombed in 2005 (which would have been built to modern standards without Asbestos)

That's a frightening thought.

 

[northwichcat]

To be used as a classroom I presume?

That's what happened with a disused carriage at Huddersfield station: http://www.examiner.co.uk/news/west-yorkshire-news/first-class-learning-railway-carriage-4939989
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That's a frightening thought.

The 507s and 508s contain asbestos but white white asbestos which isn't banned unlike blue and brown asbestos.

 

[47802]

That's what happened with a disused carriage at Huddersfield station: http://www.examiner.co.uk/news/west-yorkshire-news/first-class-learning-railway-carriage-4939989
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


The 507s and 508s contain asbestos but white white asbestos which isn't banned unlike blue and brown asbestos.

Really I was under the impression that all types of asbestos are now banned, and that the basis of white asbestos being less dangerous than the other types is highly questionable and convienent myth put about by the companies that used it.

I would also be surprised if even the C stock contains Blue or Brown asbestos.

 

[DeparturesBeck]

Some NYC Subway cars have been used as artificial reefs, some info here:

www.nytimes.com/2008/04/08/us/08reef.html

Extract: "Growing Pains for a Deep-Sea Home Built of Subway Cars
SLAUGHTER BEACH, Del. Sixteen nautical miles from the Indian River Inlet and about 80 feet underwater, a building boom is under way at the Red Bird Reef.

One by one, a machine operator has been shoving hundreds of retired New York City subway cars off a barge, continuing the transformation of a barren stretch of ocean floor into a bountiful oasis, carpeted in sea grasses, walled thick with blue mussels and sponges, and teeming with black sea bass and tautog.

They're basically luxury condominiums for fish, Jeff Tinsman, artificial reef program manager for the Delaware Department of Natural Resources and Environmental Control, said as one of 48 of the 19-ton retirees from New York City sank toward the 666 already on the ocean floor."

 

[Tetchytyke]

The 507s and 508s contain asbestos but white white asbestos which isn't banned unlike blue and brown asbestos.

The import, sale or recycling of white asbestos is banned.

Where asbestos is in place in a building (and presumably a train), the owner is responsible for ensuring that the material does not deteroriate. If it is in place it can remain in place but should be removed where possible and certainly before the fibres pose a risk to human health.

 

[DownSouth]

The import, sale or recycling of white asbestos is banned.

Where asbestos is in place in a building (and presumably a train), the owner is responsible for ensuring that the material does not deteroriate. If it is in place it can remain in place but should be removed where possible and certainly before the fibres pose a risk to human health.

This is currently an issue for two rail operators in Australia - they bought some 3,200 kW MTU-powered diesel locomotives built in China. The locomotives came with the necessary "asbestos-free" certifications required for importing heavy goods into Australia, but it turned out the certificate wasn't worth the paper it was printed on and the engine room is full of it.

 

[northwichcat]

Really I was under the impression that all types of asbestos are now banned, and that the basis of white asbestos being less dangerous than the other types is highly questionable and convenient myth put about by the companies that used it.

The RMT seem to think the 507s and 508s containing white asbestos isn't an issue even though it was the RMT who raised the issue:

HEATERS on most of Merseyrail’s trains were turned off last week while the operator waited for the results of tests for asbestos.

Concerns were raised by a trade union safety official on Wednesday.

But the company said test results came back all clear and the heaters are now working normally again.

Heaters in all Merseyrail’s trains, some of which are 34-years-old, contain white asbestos.

Merseyrail and the RMT union said there is no danger to passengers during normal running of the heaters.

But Merseyrail spokesman Rudi Boersma revealed that a trade union safety representative brought an asbestos-related issue to their attention during the week.

He said heaters on a number of trains operating “bellows-type” heating units were switched off and experts were brought in immediately to take test samples.

He said: “The results came back within 48 hours and there was no hint of asbestos.”

He added: “We would never expose any of our staff or passengers to any danger.

“We are zero tolerant to any risks and after we got the all clear the heating is back on and operating as normal.”

Mr Boersma could not confirm how many trains were affected but an insider told the ECHO that up to two thirds of its 55-strong fleet were tested.

The RMT played down the incident, but the union did raise concerns a year ago about the potential danger of asbestos to its fitters during major overhauls of the ageing heating units.

Shortly after Merseyrail introduced safety procedures at its Birkenhead North depot to protect maintenance crews while working on the heating units.

An RMT official said: “As with everything containing asbestos they are perfectly safe when in service but care needs to be taken when units are being stripped down during maintenance.”

Breathing in asbestos fibres can lead to lung cancer but white asbestos is not considered to be as dangerous as the banned blue and brown varieties.

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/asbestos-scare-on-merseyrail-trains-3349029

 

[47802]

The RMT seem to think the 507s and 508s containing white asbestos isn't an issue even though it was the RMT who raised the issue:



http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/asbestos-scare-on-merseyrail-trains-3349029

I suggest you look at Arctic Trolls post

The import, sale or recycling of white asbestos is banned.

Where asbestos is in place in a building (and presumably a train), the owner is responsible for ensuring that the material does not deteroriate. If it is in place it can remain in place but should be removed where possible and certainly before the fibres pose a risk to human health..

My Mother died from it and that was white asbestos.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

It depends on what's in the coaches. C Stock is riddled with Asbestos hence TfL are requiring the trains to be scrapped. I wonder if the donated carriage is the Hungarian built replacement for the stock bombed in 2005 (which would have been built to modern standards without Asbestos)

No, both the rebuilt units were scrapped. The college carriage is one from the C77 build, I think.

 

[BestWestern]

It depends on what's in the coaches. C Stock is riddled with Asbestos hence TfL are requiring the trains to be scrapped. I wonder if the donated carriage is the Hungarian built replacement for the stock bombed in 2005 (which would have been built to modern standards without Asbestos)

No, both the rebuilt units were scrapped. The college carriage is one from the C77 build, I think.

That's quite interesting. So the bomb damaged units were rebuilt, in Hungary? Complete new cars or rebuilt from the ground up?

 

[Domh245]

The bomb damaged units were rebuilt from the solebar up. The C Stock that went to the college was 5701, and I believe the plan is to use it as a practical area, where students look at the electrical, mechanical, and pneumatic systems on a train and come up with ideas to modify them.

 

[Welshman]

In days of yore, carriages past their best used to end up as Camping Coaches on the more picturesque parts of the network!

Re the Huddersfield example mentioned earlier, I'm sure the "Eureka" Children's Museum in nearby Halifax used to have a Mk2A coach, donated by the then local TOC.

I'm not sure it's still there and in use, though.

 

[Smod]

With reference to the earlier mention of the tube carriages in Shoreditch, here they are:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/gareths_pix/8718592734/in/set-72157632401471239

http://www.flickr.com/photos/gareths_pix/8718594960/in/set-72157632401471239/

 

[tjlrailblue]

Think I read somewhere that the fire service have some old coaches to use for training exercises

More cafes / diners in old railway coaches would be good!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Re the Huddersfield example mentioned earlier, I'm sure the "Eureka" Children's Museum in nearby Halifax used to have a Mk2A coach, donated by the then local TOC.

I'm not sure it's still there and in use, though.

It's still there, and around 2 years ago was repainted in Northern livery.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

The bomb damaged units were rebuilt from the solebar up.

That is correct; the frames were the originals. I would go further - I seem to recall reading somewhere that only the trailers were thus rebuilt and the DMs were completely original.

 

[Nym]

Watching a video last night of an old underground train being removed from service and off to the scrapyard made me wonder - if the train is beyond repair/refurbishment to carry on in service, how many of them find other uses?

Thinking I'm sure I've seen photos of old units in people's gardens etc, but are any old carriages used for public use, say as classroom additions for busy schools, temporary accommodation for hard-up councils, or even sent off to disaster zones where people simply need basic shelter?

Has anyone any examples of scrapped carriages still in static use?

5701 at Grenwich UTC.

To be used as a classroom I presume?

Practical training area, it has a static electricity hookup, a spare bogie and compressor next to it.

The bomb damaged units were rebuilt from the solebar up. The C Stock that went to the college was 5701, and I believe the plan is to use it as a practical area, where students look at the electrical, mechanical, and pneumatic systems on a train and come up with ideas to modify them.

Indeedy, and no comment on how much work needed to be put in to make it ready and workable for them.

Not just removing all asbesdos, but in making the systems workable, preparing drawings, external generators etc etc etc etc etc etc etc...

Won't bad mouth the project too much in public, but I'm not a fan(!)

 

[AndrewP]

Really I was under the impression that all types of asbestos are now banned, and that the basis of white asbestos being less dangerous than the other types is highly questionable and convienent myth put about by the companies that used it.

Its not questionable at all there has been significant research to confirm that it is less dangerous. However, that is not to say it is not dangerous - the fibres are still shaped like fish hooks so can't be breathed out.

Asbestos was very widely used for many years so assume any building over 30years old has asbestos unless proven otherwise.

 

[strowger]

The "Eureka" Mk2 (and fake 03) are still in place, and as a previous poster commented, the Mk2 was repainted and tarted-up inside quite recently.

Structurally I suspect it's well past end-of-life - if you're ever passing, have a look at the enormous rust-holes in the bottom of it....

 

[47802]

Its not questionable at all there has been significant research to confirm that it is less dangerous. However, that is not to say it is not dangerous - the fibres are still shaped like fish hooks so can't be breathed out.

Asbestos was very widely used for many years so assume any building over 30years old has asbestos unless proven otherwise.

Having worked for a company for a short while that used Asbestos, and the fact my mother was a victim of it I don't need the likes of you to give me a lecture on it.

Throughout the last 40 years the regulations on White Asbestos have become more and more severe due to increasing evidence that it was more dangerous than previously thought until eventually it was effectively band.

With regard to Mesothelioma cancer there is no safe limit of exposure and it can be caused by any type of asbestos, therefore as far as I'm concerned all types of asbestos are equally lethal, and I always regarded the supposed research that said White was safer than Blue as little more than a useful diversion by the asbestos manufacturers to allow them to continue using it.

 

[AndrewP]

Having worked for a company for a short while that used Asbestos, and the fact my mother was a victim of it I don't need the likes of you to give me a lecture on it.

Throughout the last 40 years the regulations on White Asbestos have become more and more severe due to increasing evidence that it was more dangerous than previously thought until eventually it was effectively band.

With regard to Mesothelioma cancer there is no safe limit of exposure and it can be caused by any type of asbestos, therefore as far as I'm concerned all types of asbestos are equally lethal, and I always regarded the supposed research that said White was safer than Blue as little more than a useful diversion by the asbestos manufacturers to allow them to continue using it.

I appreciate this affects you personally but please note:

1. There is no need to be rude 'the likes of you' is a patronising phrase considering you do not know anything about me. I also did not 'lecture' you - asbestos is misunderstood by many. If you want a 'lecture' I can help here as I know experts in the industry

2. You are factually wrong - there are different degrees of danger in terms of asbestos but, as I said none are safe.



Please consider what you say before typing it as it can and does cause offence.

 

[Sleepy]

Easy answer : when carriages reach the end of their life they are sent to East Anglia for use for another 20 years !!!

 

[dangie]

Has anyone any examples of scrapped carriages still in static use?

Spot Gate Inn, Hilderstone, Staffordshire.
http://www.spotgateinn.co.uk/the-pullman-cars

 

[Howardh]

Spot Gate Inn, Hilderstone, Staffordshire.
http://www.spotgateinn.co.uk/the-pullman-cars

Looks lovely - only spoiled by those horrid racks above the double-seats

 

[47802]

I appreciate this affects you personally but please note:

1. There is no need to be rude 'the likes of you' is a patronising phrase considering you do not know anything about me. I also did not 'lecture' you - asbestos is misunderstood by many. If you want a 'lecture' I can help here as I know experts in the industry

2. You are factually wrong - there are different degrees of danger in terms of asbestos but, as I said none are safe.



Please consider what you say before typing it as it can and does cause offence.

I'm quite happy to cause offence to anybody who defends asbestos in any shape or form.

I am aware that White asbestos has some differences compared to the other types, and the various studies some of which contradict each other and some of which were carried out by vested interests etc which conclude that White asbestos is safer, but as far as i'm concerned the difference between the two is like jumping off a cliff one at 1000 ft high and another at 1500 ft high the result will be similar.