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When timetables change, what is issues first, staff rosters or public journey planner information?

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infobleep

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As the timetable changes for next Friday (29/09/2023) and Saturday (30/09/2023) are not yet available I was wondering about the following.

When timetables need to be revised, such as for strike action or engineering works, what is issued first, the staff diagrams and roasters or the public timetable journey planner information? Does it vary by TOC or is their an industry standard.
 
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Wilts Wanderer

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As the timetable changes for next Friday (29/09/2023) and Saturday (30/09/2023) are not yet available I was wondering about the following.

When timetables need to be revised, such as for strike action or engineering works, what is issued first, the staff diagrams and roasters or the public timetable journey planner information? Does it vary by TOC or is their an industry standard.

Traditionally when the industry was still at contractual timescales, public timetable information was (broadly) available at T-12 weeks. This required detailed timing and draft rolling stock diagrams to be complete, and a reasonable idea of the traincrew diagram principles, but it would have been very Unusual for crew diagrams to actually be complete by then. By its nature Crew diagramming is the end of the planning process (followed by actual rostering a few days before) so it’s subject to change until every single last detail of timing and rolling stock is nailed down.

So to my understanding on a good week you’d typically get passenger timings for T-12, stock diagrams for about T-6 and crew diagrams at T-2. Rosters were published a few days beforehand, complying with minimum legal timescales for notification etc.

Currently with seriously compressed planning timescales this isn’t being achieved but the underlying processes are the same. So you might get timings at T-8, stock diagrams at T-4 and traincrew at T-1, with rosters published at the minimum notification dates. Of course similar would happen in the past when late engineering work (or cancellation of work) was announced, at which point the TOCs were in damage control / all hands to the pumps -mode.

Addendum - with strike dates it’s the ultimate nightmare for planners, as the minimum 2-week notification period provides an extreme lack of time to properly compile the plan and diagrams. Typically these processes are forced to happen simultaneously, which creates errors/oversights, and they are being sorted out until the last minute. This is why strike date timetables get released so late in the day, as anything that is advertised in the public domain could theoretically mislead the travelling public if it subsequently changes after they’ve planned their journeys.
 
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louis97

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Addendum - with strike dates it’s the ultimate nightmare for planners, as the minimum 2-week notification period provides an extreme lack of time to properly compile the plan and diagrams. Typically these processes are forced to happen simultaneously, which creates errors/oversights, and they are beino sorted out until the last minute. This is why strike date timetables get released so late in the day, as anything that is advertised in the public domain could theoretically mislead the travelling public if it subsequently changes after they’ve planned their journeys.
Just a further addition, sometimes various parts of the process may end up getting handed off to control to arrange as there just isn't the time for us planners to get everything done. For example, on the day after a strike control may be required to manage the start up because train planning have not had time to balance it out of the previous strike day timetable, this means if there isn't a unit for a train due to an imbalance it will be cancelled, even if it was advertised to run.
 

infobleep

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Thanks for the replies. I found them really interesting.

This forum is great for learning about stuff you might not find an answer to elsewhere.

All the canceled buses on the South Western Railway today were clearly handled by control as they were canceled on the day and I imagine Control deals with the ok day cancellations.

South Western Railway did put in alternative arrangements for passengers to use local buses.
 

Deafdoggie

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For fear of asking a stupid question, but...why don't they use the same strike timetable on every day there's a strike?
 

Bumpkin

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For fear of asking a stupid question, but...why don't they use the same strike timetable on every day there's a strike?
Most TOCs I would imagine by now have a base plan they use, a pseudo LTP in effect. This is then tailored to the engineering possessions on that day in the normal STP process they would do every other day of year.

It would depend on the day-to-day work load of the planning teams as to whether this is undertaken by the planning team itself, or control on the day/beforehand.
 

Whisky Papa

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Traditionally when the industry was still at contractual timescales, public timetable information was (broadly) available at T-12 weeks. This required detailed timing and draft rolling stock diagrams to be complete, and a reasonable idea of the traincrew diagram principles, but it would have been very Unusual for crew diagrams to actually be complete by then. By its nature Crew diagramming is the end of the planning process (followed by actual rostering a few days before) so it’s subject to change until every single last detail of timing and rolling stock is nailed down.

So to my understanding on a good week you’d typically get passenger timings for T-12, stock diagrams for about T-6 and crew diagrams at T-2. Rosters were published a few days beforehand, complying with minimum legal timescales for notification etc.

Currently with seriously compressed planning timescales this isn’t being achieved but the underlying processes are the same. So you might get timings at T-8, stock diagrams at T-4 and traincrew at T-1, with rosters published at the minimum notification dates. Of course similar would happen in the past when late engineering work (or cancellation of work) was announced, at which point the TOCs were in damage control / all hands to the pumps -mode.

Addendum - with strike dates it’s the ultimate nightmare for planners, as the minimum 2-week notification period provides an extreme lack of time to properly compile the plan and diagrams. Typically these processes are forced to happen simultaneously, which creates errors/oversights, and they are being sorted out until the last minute. This is why strike date timetables get released so late in the day, as anything that is advertised in the public domain could theoretically mislead the travelling public if it subsequently changes after they’ve planned their journeys.
When I was compiling Short Term Plan unit diagrams for Northern over a decade ago, ie under "normal" timescales with T-12 for timetables, I would say your suggestion of T-6 for stock diagrams would have rarely been met, or even aimed for. We were much closer to the wire than that most of the time for routine engineering work, although I suppose some of the more major blockades might have been passed on to the traincrew diagrammers to do their thing a little earlier if possible.
 

Wilts Wanderer

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When I was compiling Short Term Plan unit diagrams for Northern over a decade ago, ie under "normal" timescales with T-12 for timetables, I would say your suggestion of T-6 for stock diagrams would have rarely been met, or even aimed for. We were much closer to the wire than that most of the time for routine engineering work, although I suppose some of the more major blockades might have been passed on to the traincrew diagrammers to do their thing a little earlier if possible.

Yes of course it depended on the TOC in question. My personal experience was an aim for T-6 but as you say more often than not this wasn’t achieved. Meantime Network Rail were doing their best to try and force companies to bid full stock diagrams at T-18 along with the timings! The mind boggles.
 

class 9

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Staff rosters are published 3 days in advance on the daily alteration sheet ( this 3 day is my TOC, others will vary)
 

brick60000

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Most TOCs I would imagine by now have a base plan they use, a pseudo LTP in effect.

Whilst not incorrect - a point that’s often missed is that the exact combination of strike action / days is still frequently different.

Eg
Friday ASLEF strike to Saturday WTT
Friday ASLEF strike to Saturday RMT
Friday RMT to Saturday Aslef
Friday RMT to Saturday WTT
Friday RMT to Saturday ASLEF OT ban

Even just considering one two day combination, you’ve got multiple different before & after scenarios which all have to be balanced differently and require new plans. And that’s before you consider extended periods of OT bans into strikes into further OT bans into engineering work….etc!

Which is why even now, operators are struggling to get things done. It’s 100% not laziness!
 

infobleep

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Whilst not incorrect - a point that’s often missed is that the exact combination of strike action / days is still frequently different.

Eg
Friday ASLEF strike to Saturday WTT
Friday ASLEF strike to Saturday RMT
Friday RMT to Saturday Aslef
Friday RMT to Saturday WTT
Friday RMT to Saturday ASLEF OT ban

Even just considering one two day combination, you’ve got multiple different before & after scenarios which all have to be balanced differently and require new plans. And that’s before you consider extended periods of OT bans into strikes into further OT bans into engineering work….etc!

Which is why even now, operators are struggling to get things done. It’s 100% not laziness!
I agree with your comment on not bwing laziness. I think it's useful for this stuff to be explained to the public, well those of us who want to know at least.
 

Bald Rick

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For fear of asking a stupid question, but...why don't they use the same strike timetable on every day there's a strike?

Three reasons:

1) every strike is not exactly the same, based on combinations of who is striking and exactly when
2) the normal base plan is not the same - it actually changes every day for some operators due to engineering works, special events, etc, and therefore the strike plan needs to take this into account
3) over time the number of people who choose not to strike changes, and the number of contingent staff competent to take the place of striking staff changes (In both cases, usually upwards). Operators will always want to provide as much of a service as possible.
 
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