When the ticket office just can't find the fare

[Gareth Marston]

Yes the ones that offer a whole 1% saving in some cases eh!

And all with different restrictions compared to the WMT set CDR's between Salop and International!

 

[Gareth Marston]

Indeed. You are quite right.

However, if the customer wants Stockport to Manchester Piccadilly, and you clarify with them that they only want to go to Manchester Piccadilly and no further as they will be being picked up from there, then that doesn't actually solve the problem that three different destinations potentially need to be checked in order to offer the customer all of the options.

And a problem that's nothing to do with archaic BR fares.

 

[RJ]

I'm wondering how anyone finds out about the existence of this fare, let alone actually buying one?!

That's a very good question. I stumbled upon it by chance back in the days of active hunting for good value MML fares. Fares are supposed to be advertised in the journey planners but that isn't happening here. I happen to agree with the concept of station grouping as it makes it easier for those who retail and use the tickets.

At Paddington I asked for a ticket to Cardiff a few weeks back thinking I was getting a ticket to Cardiff Stations. I didn't realise it came out as Cardiff Central which technically made it invalid to go to Cardiff Queen Street, which is where I was actually going.

It seems suits the arrangements of the TOCs to undo this particular element of simplicity, which was actually a good thing.

 

[Starmill]

Was there ever a Cardiff Stations group? If there was, it has not existed for a long time! A price differential applies for many origins to Cardiff Queen Street vs Cardiff Central, which I think is the main reason for not having a group. The same applies to Exeter St Davids and Exeter Central. It is also bizarre that there is not a station group which contains Edinburgh and Haymarket (call it what you will) and also a Burnley Stations group containing Burnley Manchester Road, Burnley Central and Burnley Barracks.

 

[Qwerty133]

That's a very good question. I stumbled upon it by chance back in the days of active hunting for good value MML fares. Fares are supposed to be advertised in the journey planners but that isn't happening here. I happen to agree with the concept of station grouping as it makes it easier for those who retail and use the tickets.

At Paddington I asked for a ticket to Cardiff a few weeks back thinking I was getting a ticket to Cardiff Stations. I didn't realise it came out as Cardiff Central which technically made it invalid to go to Cardiff Queen Street, which is where I was actually going.

It seems suits the arrangements of the TOCs to undo this particular element of simplicity, which was actually a good thing.

To be fair in this particular case LM did advertise the LM and XC only fares on their website at one point.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Ungrouping of the group stations eg VTEC advance are priced to Kings Cross. Wasn’t the TOCs doing and has caused various problems for various systems.

 

[AnkleBoots]

I'm wondering how anyone finds out about the existence of this fare, let alone actually buying one?!

railforums.co.uk of course!

 

[RJ]

To be fair in this particular case LM did advertise the LM and XC only fares on their website at one point.

Which is great - but now this station ungrouping has made it difficult to find for your average person buying online or selling tickets at stations! Not everyone has the ability to continually hack at input fields until it shows.

 

[BluePenguin]

I found the fare on my phone doing a quick search specifying from Euston and via Tamworth. It gave an itinary taking 2 hours 58 minutes changing at Tamworth and Derby

 

[Joe Paxton]

I found the fare on my phone doing a quick search specifying from Euston and via Tamworth. It gave an itinary taking 2 hours 58 minutes changing at Tamworth and Derby

View attachment 47858 View attachment 47857

Yes, but how did you know to do that? By reading about it on this thread, right? And if you hadn't have read it on this forum, what's the likelihood you would have searched for a London to Sheffield fare via Tamworth?

I do note that Qwerty133 said above that London Midland did advertise the existence of this fare on their website in the past.

 

[philthetube]

Was there ever a Cardiff Stations group? If there was, it has not existed for a long time! A price differential applies for many origins to Cardiff Queen Street vs Cardiff Central, which I think is the main reason for not having a group. The same applies to Exeter St Davids and Exeter Central. It is also bizarre that there is not a station group which contains Edinburgh and Haymarket (call it what you will) and also a Burnley Stations group containing Burnley Manchester Road, Burnley Central and Burnley Barracks.

There seems to be a Burnley group in practice if not in theory.

 

[Coolzac]

On another issue, two weeks ago on a Saturday I couldn't purchase a ticket at London KGX which is on BR fares. I wanted a single from London KGX to Scarborough, the specific fare being this one:

http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=KGX&dest=SCA&grpo=1072&tkt=SSU

But they were only coming up with this one at King's Cross station:

http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=KGX&dest=SCA&grpo=1072&tkt=SSS

Were they wrong or is it an invalid fare?

 

[IrishDave]

On another issue, two weeks ago on a Saturday I couldn't purchase a ticket at London KGX which is on BR fares. I wanted a single from London KGX to Scarborough, the specific fare being this one:

http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=KGX&dest=SCA&grpo=1072&tkt=SSU

But they were only coming up with this one at King's Cross station:

http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=KGX&dest=SCA&grpo=1072&tkt=SSS

Were they wrong or is it an invalid fare?

On this occasion, I believe the booking office were correct. The SSS is the super off-peak single, priced at £1 less than the return; this is universally available. The SSU is the same as an SSS, but priced at half the cost of the super off-peak return (SSR), and is only available on VTEC's website, not at booking offices.

It's the same idea as the SVH fares (originally Saver Half-Return) that still survive on Virgin West Coast (though an SVH is, I believe, only available when purchased together with an advance fare for the other direction to make up a return).

 

[alistairlees]

On another issue, two weeks ago on a Saturday I couldn't purchase a ticket at London KGX which is on BR fares. I wanted a single from London KGX to Scarborough, the specific fare being this one:

http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=KGX&dest=SCA&grpo=1072&tkt=SSU

But they were only coming up with this one at King's Cross station:

http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=KGX&dest=SCA&grpo=1072&tkt=SSS

Were they wrong or is it an invalid fare?

They were correct

 

[alistairlees]

On this occasion, I believe the booking office were correct. The SSS is the super off-peak single, priced at £1 less than the return; this is universally available. The SSU is the same as an SSS, but priced at half the cost of the super off-peak return (SSR), and is only available on VTEC's website, not at booking offices.

It's the same idea as the SVH fares (originally Saver Half-Return) that still survive on Virgin West Coast (though an SVH is, I believe, only available when purchased together with an advance fare for the other direction to make up a return).

SVH can be paired with any other ticket in the opposite direction (except another SVH). Does not need to be Advance.

 

[Joe Paxton]

On another issue, two weeks ago on a Saturday I couldn't purchase a ticket at London KGX which is on BR fares. I wanted a single from London KGX to Scarborough, the specific fare being this one:

http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=KGX&dest=SCA&grpo=1072&tkt=SSU

But they were only coming up with this one at King's Cross station:

http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=KGX&dest=SCA&grpo=1072&tkt=SSS

Were they wrong or is it an invalid fare?

It's a valid fare - a Super Off-Peak Single - however it can only be bought online (and only via the VTEC site) as part of a return journey.

It enables you to buy a semi-flexible ticket in one direction (i.e. the Super Off-Peak Single) and an Advance in the other.

The official word on the VTEC website regarding these tickets is here:
www.virgintrainseastcoast.com/special-offers/travel-savings/off-peak-train-tickets/

There are similar tickets on VTWC priced flows.

 

[Coolzac]

Ah, I see. Thanks everyone! The person behind the counter couldn't tell me why this fare wasn't available, they just pointed to their computer and said it wasn't appearing on it.

 

[Haywain]

Ah, I see. Thanks everyone! The person behind the counter couldn't tell me why this fare wasn't available, they just pointed to their computer and said it wasn't appearing on it.

That's slightly surprising, I would have expected them to know.

 

[Wallsendmag]

That's slightly surprising, I would have expected them to know.

Me too

 

[BrooklyBay]

Hello, new here!

Hadn't heard of brfares.com - been having a browse there. Once you find a particular fare there, is there any clever way to search any of the ticketing sites for that specific type of fare? Struggling to find the fares on booking sites that I find on brfares.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Just because a fare exists doesn’t mean it’s available on every service

 

[BrooklyBay]

Just because a fare exists doesn’t meN it’s available on every service

Exactly - that's my issue, is there a (convenient) way to find them that I'm missing, or is it a "exhaustingly hunt them down" scenario? I suspect the latter, but would hate to be missing out!

 

[Joe Paxton]

Exactly - that's my issue, is there a (convenient) way to find them that I'm missing, or is it a "exhaustingly hunt them down" scenario? I suspect the latter, but would hate to be missing out!

If it's an Advance fare, then (as has been stated above) do not assume it will actually be available on any trains at all - just because an Advance fare is ready in the system, it means nowt in terms of it actually being offered.

Several booking engines offer 'Best Fare Finders' which can help you determine the days and times of the services offering the cheapest Advance tickets. (I think they all rely on cached data, so they might show out-of-date availability.)

 

[Wallsendmag]

Are you travelling with VTEC? The site has a cheap fares finder function that shows you the cheapest times to travel.

 

[BrooklyBay]

Thanks both - I was thinking that if it was on brfares then it was a ticket that is currently offered (even if in v. limited numbers/hard to find), didn't realise that it was more a list of what could be offered rather than what is offered.

I'll continue my usual haphazard methods!

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Thanks both - I was thinking that if it was on brfares then it was a ticket that is currently offered (even if in v. limited numbers/hard to find), didn't realise that it was more a list of what could be offered rather than what is offered.

I'll continue my usual haphazard methods!

Some tickets only valid via particularly long and slow routes (e.g. Shrewsbury to London via 'WARMSTER-SALSBRY'!) won't show up by default, so you'll need to select the 'show slower routes' option in your chosen ticket website. Trainline-based systems (e.g. VTWC, WMT, XC, NT, SR etc.) are slow and not very useful for this - showing you every Advance tier even though this is pointless, since the cheapest is always shown by default! It also won't sell a ticket unless it can do so in conjunction with an itinerary.

I prefer Worldline/MixingDeck based sites (e.g. TPE) for such tickets - if you select slower routes, it only shows you the routes and not each individual tier of advance. You can select those you'd like to see, and then either buy with or without an itinerary. Plus TPE has free ticket changes (which are usually £10 on other sites) and free postage. The only disadvantage being that the commission goes to TPE

 

[RJ]

Thanks both - I was thinking that if it was on brfares then it was a ticket that is currently offered (even if in v. limited numbers/hard to find), didn't realise that it was more a list of what could be offered rather than what is offered.

I'll continue my usual haphazard methods!

It shows what is in the fares database. A lot of what is in there is issuing NLC restricted or subject to availability.

 

[Joe Paxton]

It shows what is in the fares database. A lot of what is in there is issuing NLC restricted or subject to availability.

I wonder if it might be beneficial if BRfares carried a more explicit/obvious warning about this?

 

[Paul Kelly]

I wonder if it might be beneficial if BRfares carried a more explicit/obvious warning about this?

It can only show what's in the data. In the case of SVH/SSH on-line only off-peak single fares, at least Virgin (West Coast) put a block in the data to show that the fare cannot be sold; you can see it in the fare details screen on BR Fares e.g. here: http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=EUS&dest=BHM&grpo=1072&grpd=0418&tkt=SVH (see image in attachment).

However Virgin (East Coast) have not even deigned to put such a block into the data, meaning there is nothing at all (apart from whitelists/blacklists and specific hacks added by TIS and journey planner suppliers) to show that the SSU online-only off-peak single fare should be sold only online.

 

[Wallsendmag]

It can only show what's in the data. In the case of SVH/SSH on-line only off-peak single fares, at least Virgin (West Coast) put a block in the data to show that the fare cannot be sold; you can see it in the fare details screen on BR Fares e.g. here: http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=EUS&dest=BHM&grpo=1072&grpd=0418&tkt=SVH (see image in attachment).

However Virgin (East Coast) have not even deigned to put such a block into the data, meaning there is nothing at all (apart from whitelists/blacklists and specific hacks added by TIS and journey planner suppliers) to show that the SSU online-only off-peak single fare should be sold only online.

I believed it was location controlled.