When Kings Cross is blocked off?

[NSEFAN]

Here is my question. If GNER/NXEC/EC and also WAGN/FCC could not run into Kings Cross, what alternative would there be?

For example, Hertford/Welwyn services could easily run to Moorgate instead, but trains formed of Class 365/91/43/180 could obviously not do this, so what would a good solution be?

The reason I ask is that I'm making a Simsig scenario where Kings Cross is blocked off for some reason (ie, emergency works on the copenhagen and gasworks tunnels), so trains are reversed either at Finsbury or Stevenage, or sent to Moorgate, but I want to make the sim fairly realistic.

Thanks in advance (hope this is in the right place!)

 

[gordonthemoron]

IIRC, during bomb scares in the 90's, trains were reversed at Finsbury Park

 

[jopsuk]

There were recent blockades on early weekend mornings. Not sure what the IC operators were doing, but FCC were terminating at Finsbury Park.

 

[GNERman]

finsbury park seems logical as it has easy links with kings cross via two tube routes

also gc ran into cambridge I seem to remember so hst's/180 could do that and transrer to liverpool street

 

[stut]

I've seen GNER and WAGN both terminate at Finsbury Park before. It was crowded (to the point of needing crowd control and one-way passages) but worked acceptably for a weekend.

 

[djw1981]

If planned, I think ICEC operators have terminated at Stevenage - with RRS to Kings Cross - because Finsbury a) gets overcrowded easily and b) there are no ICEc staff absed at Finsbury Pk.

 

[philjo]

There have been occasions when Kings Cross & Finsbury Park have been unavailable for use (e.g. 7/7/05 London bombings causing all stations to be closed)
On those occasions, the GN outer suburban services started from Welwyn Garden City (half-hourly to both Cambridge & Peterborough), with a shuttle service on the Inners working from WGC to Alexandra Palace.
The GNER services were turning round at Peterborugh & Stevenage.

 

[Aictos]

I would say the following would probably happen during a weekday blockade of Kings Cross as Moorgate wouldn't be available during the weekend.

East Coast services to terminate and turnround at Stevenage.

Grand Central and First Hull Trains to terminate and turnround at Cambridge via March.

FCC's 317s, 321s and 365s to terminate and turnround at Finsbury Park on a reduced timetable.

FCC's 313s to run into Moorgate.

 

[NSEFAN]

Many thanks for all the replies

Moorgate wouldn't be available during the weekend

Why would Moorgate not be available at the weekend? I know it isn't used anyway at weekends, but would it not be possible to re-open it for Great Northern use?

 

[jon0844]

I do think there's a case for weekend services to Moorgate, even if it wasn't all day (like the week). Perhaps there's also a case for a later Friday and Saturday night service too - say midnight.

Is there any actual reason for the early shutdown? It used to close even earlier in the week not so long ago (5 years?).

On 7/7, Wagn ran an emergency timetable shuttle service from Finsbury Park, which worked well. Mind you, part of this was because nobody complained and, generally speaking, queued quietly and in a very dignified way. The story may well be different if trains weren't going into King's Cross because of a signal failure or whatever.

 

[CCF23]

Could use the route the sleeper sometimes takes when going up the ECML into Euston

 

[MCR247]

Could use the route the sleeper sometimes takes when going up the ECML into Euston

But AFAIK thats not electrified, thats why it uses 67s. So it wouldnt be any good

 

[Fincra5]

yh bt the HSTs could keep running in.

 

[33056]

But AFAIK thats not electrified, thats why it uses 67s. So it wouldnt be any good

The sleeper diversions are normally 90 hauled, the route is electrified (via King's Cross Incline, Camden Road and WCML or Gospel Oak), but you would have to reverse in the Wembley area. This idea would also be a non-starter for diversions of the East Coast services as there would be;
1. Problems with driver route knowledge
2. Lack of spare platforms at Euston

 

[MCR247]

yh bt the HSTs could keep running in.

Yes, but what would happen to 91s etc that would block the line

 

[bengolding]

It would be lovely to see East Coast trains run to St Pancras instead when Kings Cross is blocked off. Sadly, with so few available platforms I do not see this happening. A truly awful situation.

 

[jon0844]

St Pancras has nowhere near enough platforms and I'm not sure how they could ever solve this issue. If (or when) we get more international trains arriving and departing in years to come (going beyond Belgium and France), it really will be a squeeze.

 

[Aictos]

Many thanks for all the replies



Why would Moorgate not be available at the weekend? I know it isn't used anyway at weekends, but would it not be possible to re-open it for Great Northern use?

Simply because the demand isn't there according to the people who matter ie FCC and TfL who have the last decision on operational matters on the NCL.
One group has stated that late evening (after 2200) services on the NCL couldn't be justified on cost grounds so don't see the need for a Sunday service with the time better spent for essential engineering works.

You be quite surprised what a little bit of research on Google can throw up!

 

[ungreat]

Here is my question. If GNER/NXEC/EC and also WAGN/FCC could not run into Kings Cross, what alternative would there be?

For example, Hertford/Welwyn services could easily run to Moorgate instead, but trains formed of Class 365/91/43/180 could obviously not do this, so what would a good solution be?

The reason I ask is that I'm making a Simsig scenario where Kings Cross is blocked off for some reason (ie, emergency works on the copenhagen and gasworks tunnels), so trains are reversed either at Finsbury or Stevenage, or sent to Moorgate, but I want to make the sim fairly realistic.

Thanks in advance (hope this is in the right place!)

All Hertford/WGC services except for late night/early morning and sat/sun services run to Moorgate anyway. Drayton Park can be used as turnaround point when Moorgate is shut.

EC services would terminate at Stevenage,maybe a couple going to FP. FCC would terminate at FP. If it was just KX station blocked,and not the tunnels,it is possible to turnaround in Gasworks tunnel,but only with gangwayed stock.In FCCs case,just 313/317.

There are many,many scenarios,too many to list but in general that is what happens.

Hope this helps

An FCC driver

 

[Aictos]

If it was just KX station blocked,and not the tunnels,it is possible to turnaround in Gasworks tunnel,but only with gangwayed stock.In FCCs case,just 313/317.

An FCC driver

I think you will find that if you mean gangway connections between trains that only 317s would be able to do that as 313s, 321s and 365s do not have a gangway connection at each end of the specific unit involved.

The 313s end gangway is purely there for emergency purposes to get people off the train.

 

[ungreat]

Ajax,drivers can use the doors on the ends of the 313 units to change ends.That is why I included them along with 317s.The OP wanted scenarios he can use in SimSig..that is one he could.

I am aware of why the 313 has that door there...I drive the damn things regularly along with 317,321 and 365,and am required to know where I can/cannot change ends

 

[jon0844]

I would expect there to be demand for late night services into Moorgate (well, not Moorgate but Old Steet primarily) on a Friday and Saturday night. I base this on the number of people I see on a weekend going out drinking, clubbing etc. Admittedly, it's not a crowd you necessarily want to look after at midnight, but that's another argument!

Moorgate is dead on a weekend. Essex Road is probably hardly used EVER. Ditto for Drayton Park. This would skew the figures quite a bit, I'm sure.

Highbury & Islington provides a link to London Overground though (and other tube lines) and I bet if the inner-suburban lines became part of LO, you might find the trains to Moorgate running 7 days a week.

 

[ungreat]

Quite likely jon

 

[yorksrob]

I'm a bit sceptical of companies not running Sunday services because they're not economical. For a start it shouldn't be up to them whether they run a sunday service or not. It should be specified in the franchise.

Mainly I think the lack of Sunday services on many lines is more to do with historical precedent rather than logic. For example, my line, the Hallam line has a stopping train every two hours on a Sunday. Lousy, admittedly, but adequate for the stations en route, which aren't served by other services, and which are normally villages or small towns.

Yet take the Manchester Vic -Atherton line, which arguably serves greater urban areas and surely has at least as much potential as Hallam, and no Sunday service.

 

[jon0844]

Where I live, we have a bus route that runs from about 0600 to 2330 daily - a circular route from a housing estate to town centre to train station.

Many buses run empty, but they do use a small Optare 20-or-so seater mini-bus that works fine.

It was of course specified in the contract from the county council that this must run 7 days a week - for a 5 year period.

I don't know if this will continue beyond then, but someone clearly thinks it is a service that must be run even if the buses aren't always used. I guess some things are classed as a public service and not judged purely on profit.

I reckon the busy buses in the day, or peak hours, may just about cover the other times.. but if the other buses didn't run in the off-peak periods, nobody would want to use the bus at all (if you see what I mean).

A tricky one, but running a poor service is probably no better than no service.

 

[Aictos]

While we're on about buses, lets think about bus replacement services...

Now when these services are in operation on the Hertford Loop, the existing system is all wrong.

Currently there is a all stations bus from Hertford North to Alexandra Palace and a all stations bus from Stevenage to Alexandra Palace.

Now that doesn't seem so bad but although these services can call at Watton At Stone, it's damn hard to turn the vehicles around so that being said what FCC should look into doing is run a shuttle service between Stevenage and Hertford North calling at Watton At Stone using a minibus or a Optare and instead run a all stations from Hertford North to Alexandra Palace and a more faster express from Hertford North to Alexandra Palace calling only at Cuffley, Gordon Hill, Enfield Chase and Alexandra Palace.