When is Any Permitted not Permitted?

[Freddie]

Hi all,

Quick check I'm not going mad before TPE gets both barrels of the angry letter cannon!

I'm currently commuting Warrington to Port Sunlight, on Anytime tickets with a YP discount. As far as I can see, there are two routes, via Liverpool and via Chester; I normally travel via Liverpool as it's faster.

I know in the past you could only get tickets routed via Liverpool or via Chester, but the current available tickets seem to be Any Permitted (£8.40 SDR with YP) and Via Liverpool (£9.40 SDR with YP). Obviously, I normally get the Any Permitted fare, which is accepted without question by the barriers at Lime St Lower Level, TPE and Merseyrail's RPIs, and the TPE guards.

Unfortunately, today the clerk at Warrington Central refused to sell me the Any Permitted fare, insisting I bought the Via Liverpool, stating that 'Any Permitted means any route the train company permits for that ticket, which via Liverpool isn't. I agree it's very confusing.'

Is it just me being thick, or is she talking out of her arse? For there to be a priced Via Liverpool route, it must be a permitted route, so an Any Permitted is valid, surely?

Obviously it's only a pound they're potentially fiddling me, but it's the principle of the thing! Refusing to sell a valid (as far as I know) ticket, and insisting I buy a more expensive, more restrictive one instead seems to fly in the face of common sense, let alone Impartial Retailing!

Cheers

Freddie

 

[Crossover]

As far as I can tell the Any Permitted isn't valid via Liverpool as there is a higher priced ticket for the specific routing, so I think the ticket office are correct I'm afraid. Happy to be corrected though

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Warrington Central and Warrington Bank Quay are part of Warrington Group Routeing Point. Port Sunlight has Associated Routeing Points of Hooton and Liverpool Group, Liverpool Group passes the Fares Check rule and is therefore a valid Routeing Point, thus via Liverpool is a permitted route.

The 'Via Liverpool' ticket will confuse people, particularly because of the other ticket previously being 'Via Chester', but the presence of a 'Via Liverpool' ticket does not affect the validity of the 'Any Permitted' ticket.

In this case the clerk was incorrect.

 

[tractakid]

Isn't the shortest route from Warrington Central to Port Sunlight via Liverpool?

 

[Olympian]

In this case the clerk was incorrect.

Agreed, and both National Rail Enquiries and online booking sites show the Any Permitted fare as being valid via Liverpool.

 

[SickyNicky]

In my opinion, the Any Permitted (£8.40 SDR with YP) is valid via Liverpool and online booking engines will happily sell this ticket via this route.

The confusion around this stems from example 3 in section F of the routeing guide. This example seems to say that if there is a higher priced routed ticket than the any permitted ticket, the any permitted ticket cannot be used that way. I think that this is badly worded. It means (I think) that if there is a routed ticket for a route that would otherwise not be permitted, an any permitted ticket is not valid that way (unless the any permitted ticket is more expensive than the routed one).

The underlying data and programming rules for booking engines are clear that an Any Permitted ticket is always valid on routes that are permitted by the routeing guide. This is regardless of any other tickets that may or may not be available.

But I can understand where the confusion lies.

As a matter of interest, in a few days time your railcard will have a minimum fare of £12 applied before 10am. This will make it cheaper to split your tickets at Liverpool anyway (unless you need to travel via Chester - which may not be a permitted route anyway - I haven't checked).

WARRINGTON STATIONS to LIVERPOOL STATIONS
ANYTIME DAY R Return £8.10
Route: Valid via any permitted route.

LIVERPOOL STATIONS to PORT SUNLIGHT
ANYTIME DAY R Return £3.55
Route: Valid via any permitted route.

Total Fare £11.65

 

[Paul Kelly]

If you complain, TPE might collude with Merseyrail to get the fare/routeing changed. Is there not a machine you can buy it from to avoid the hassle?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
If the clerk refuses to sell SickyNicky's suggested combination though, I would definitely complain about that; there's much less they can do to get that combination changed.

 

[bb21]

Any Permitted means exactly that. It is valid on all of the permitted routes as defined by NRCoC Condition 13, regardless of the existence of a higher priced route specific fare. It is not valid on such a route if the route specific fare is not a valid route defined by Condition 13 and priced higher.

 

[itsjustmyjob]

If you complain, TPE might collude with Merseyrail to get the fare/routeing changed. Is there not a machine you can buy it from to avoid the hassle?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
If the clerk refuses to sell SickyNicky's suggested combination though, I would definitely complain about that; there's much less they can do to get that combination changed.

Now this has been discussed here, I don't think you'll have long to wait until it's changed anyway!

 

[yorkie]

The booking clerk is wrong, but I doubt adequate training has been provided.

The Any Permitted ticket is, of course, valid for this route.

A similar example is Burnley to Manchester, where via hebden bridge is redundant as its valid under the shortest route rule and thus a permitted route on an any permitted ticket.

Sadly if a TOC thinks you are paying less than they want you to pay, they may try to do whatever it takes to make you pay more. There has been evidence of collusion between TOCs in order to achieve this. TPE will be aware of it soon, so their new pricing manager (when appointed) may well try to get the prices changed. It will be interesting to see what happens.

The best deals are best shared at forum events (such as our popular forum meals) rather than published where pricing managers can try to get the fares/routeings changed.

I'm not yet aware of TPE engaging in activity that looks like collusion so I hope that our fears remain unfounded and they continue to behave scrupulously, but time will tell...

By the way, are you aware of the excellent value Little Sutton to Burscough Junction fare? (if not, see separate thread and look it up on booking engines!))

 

[RJ]

As far as I can tell the Any Permitted isn't valid via Liverpool as there is a higher priced ticket for the specific routing, so I think the ticket office are correct I'm afraid. Happy to be corrected though

That is only true if the route shown on the higher priced ticket isn't a permitted route by the normal means - by being the shortest route or shown in the National Routeing Guide.

An example is Bethnal Green to Derby via Peterborough. This is £102.60 for an SOS, whereas the Any Permitted SOS is £96.50. As there are no mapped routes via Peterborough, the Any Permitted ticket isn't valid by that route.

If the via Peterborough ticket was cheaper, the Any Permitted ticket would be valid by that route.

If there was a mapped route via Peterborough, the Any Permitted ticket would be valid regardless of the existence of other fares.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

There are very cheap fares within the Merseytravel area.
Earlestown-Port Sunlight is only £4.35, Warrington BQ-Earlestown is £2.40, or £6.75 all told. Both fares Anytime SDRs with railcard.
Not valid via Widnes, so you have to put up with the NT stopper via Earlestown (soon to go electric).

Via Widnes, you can split at Liverpool South Parkway:
Warrington-LPY £4.95, LPY-PSL £3.15 for a total of £8.10 (both Anytime SDRs with railcard).

For reference, Warrington Central to Port Sunlight via Widnes is 24.5 miles (0.25 miles further via Earlestown).
Warrington BQ to Port Sunlight via Chester is 30 miles.
It's 23.5 miles via Ellesmere Port, but there is no practicable service Helsby-Ellesmere Port.
But it will be on the Any Permitted list to confuse matters.

 

[David Goddard]

If I know the online engines permit a route then I always take a printout with me in case of issues when purchasing/using it.

 

[Crossover]

I stand corrected - I'm afraid I only replied based on what was said and without access to any information - in fact it was done from my mobile while sat on the final approach to Leeds this morning so I couldn't check the permitted routes

RJ, in your example, would a via Peterborough allow travel via an "Any Permitted" route as well?

 

[bb21]

RJ, in your example, would a via Peterborough allow travel via an "Any Permitted" route as well?

Yes, if the Via Peterborough fare is more expensive.

 

[yorkie]

...would a via Peterborough allow travel via an "Any Permitted" route as well?

the guard could either accept it, or issue a zero fare excess.

 

[Freddie]

Thanks all, feedback now sent to TPE.

Glad to see I'm not going mad

 

[kieron]

I realise it's a bit late now, but they've created a couple of easements over the last 18 months which restrict Any permitted tickets between Warrington and some stations on the Wirral (but not Port Sunlight):

700363 Customers travelling from Spital to Warrington Central or Warrington Bank Quay in possession of tickets routed "Any Permitted" may not travel via Liverpool Lime Street. This easement applies in both directions.

700489 Customers travelling from Warrington Central to Eastham Rake and Hooton in possession of tickets routed "Any Permitted" or "Direct" may not travel via Liverpool Lime Street. This easement applies in both directions.

Warrington-Eastham Rake also now has tickets routed "via Liverpool", "Any Permitted" and "Direct".

There are plenty of tickets which are valid via Liverpool Lime Street (if that is your preferred interchange), or which NRE says are valid, some of which are quite a bit cheaper than a Warrington-Port Sunlight return.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I realise it's a bit late now, but they've created a couple of easements over the last 18 months which restrict Any permitted tickets between Warrington and some stations on the Wirral (but not Port Sunlight):

700363 Customers travelling from Spital to Warrington Central or Warrington Bank Quay in possession of tickets routed "Any Permitted" may not travel via Liverpool Lime Street. This easement applies in both directions.
700489 Customers travelling from Warrington Central to Eastham Rake and Hooton in possession of tickets routed "Any Permitted" or "Direct" may not travel via Liverpool Lime Street. This easement applies in both directions.
Warrington-Eastham Rake also now has tickets routed "via Liverpool", "Any Permitted" and "Direct".

I'm note sure what routes are actually "Permitted" now!
If you change at South Parkway onto Merseyrail via Liverpool Central (ie avoiding Lime St), is that allowed on Any Permitted?

 

[Freddie]

Did I ever mention how much I love ticketing?

I knew there was some weirdness with Spital - the clerk at Port Sunlight once offered me a Spital to Warrington single as it was cheaper than the PSL-WAC I asked for. I must admit, I wonder why they're bothering with the easements, the passenger numbers over those flows must be TINY.

Luckily, it only affects me for another week, I'm starting on Network Rail's apprenticeship soon!

 

[yorkie]

Easements are " relaxations of Routeing Guide rules to allow journeys that strict adherence to the rules would forbid"; if ATOC wish to change the definition they would have to consult Passenger Focus and it would need to be approved by the DfT.

Even if they change the rules to include prohibitions, they are within the Routeing Guide, so cannot affect the shortest route rule, which is an NRCoC contractual term.

ATOC have attempted to remove validity of Darton-Doncaster tickets via the shortest route (there are some lovely people at ATOC, but you have to remember they are a trade association and therefore some people at ATOC understandably do feel they are compelled to support even the most ridiculous of Train Company demands, as they represent the Train Companies collectively), and predictably the DfT refused the request, as it's a contractual term. If the request had been granted, it would have required an amendment of the NRCoC!

 

[Merseysider]

I'm note sure what routes are actually "Permitted" now!
If you change at South Parkway onto Merseyrail via Liverpool Central (ie avoiding Lime St), is that allowed on Any Permitted?

As long as in the other direction, you disembarked at Moorfields for LPY, yes. In reality, the amount of staff who have an encyclopaedic knowledge of easements and RG changes is minuscule, if not nil. If a route looks reasonable only rarely will staff challenge you.

 

[kieron]

I knew there was some weirdness with Spital - the clerk at Port Sunlight once offered me a Spital to Warrington single as it was cheaper than the PSL-WAC I asked for. I must admit, I wonder why they're bothering with the easements, the passenger numbers over those flows must be TINY.

The Spital ticket is so cheap because it's the only station in Wirral MBC which has regulated fares to Warrington.

The permitted routes are a bit odd there, anyway. Fares to Warrington decrease as you go away from central Birkenhead, but it remains a valid routeing point for stations further south because Birkenhead and Liverpool share a routeing point, but the Liverpool-Warrington single fare is £4 cheaper than the Birkenhead-Warrington one.

Luckily, it only affects me for another week, I'm starting on Network Rail's apprenticeship soon!

Good luck!