When is a seat reservation not a seat reservation?

[ejstubbs]

I'm booked to travel from Manchester Oxford Road to Edinburgh next week. I have a seat reservation on the 17:53 Virgin train from Preston to Edinburgh, but I've also been issued with a seat reservation on the 16:49 Northern service from Oxford Road to Preston. That reservation says I'm in coach "O" seats "000". I'm pretty sure that when I made the booking Transpennine's web site did say that you couldn't reserve a seat on that train, which was not unexpected.

Does this 'reservation' mean anything at all, or is it as I suspect not worth the piece of card it's printed on?

 

[1e10]

It's not a seat reservation. It's only issued in conjunction with an advance purchase ticket.

 

[ejstubbs]

It's actually an Anytime ticket. (If I'm lucky I might get away from my meeting early enough to get the 16:19 Transpennine service direct to Edinburgh. If I'm very unlucky I'll have to get the 18:19.)

I think it's just a glitch in the system caused by me wanting a seat reservation on the Virgin service. I'm resigned to standing for a good part of the way to Preston, if not all of it. I suspect I would get pretty short shrift from the rest of the sardine-like passengers if I tried waving my seat reservation about and demanding that someone give up their seat to me!

 

[swt_passenger]

It's usually known as a 'counted place reservation', and indicates that they want you to use that particular train as part of your overall itinerary, rather than any other suitable connecting train. They are fairly common, a number of TOCS have been doing this for a few years.

 

[Steddenm]

I get them a lot with Virgin. I’m usually booked in Coach *, Seat **.

 

[Romilly]

When you get one of these "counted place" reservations with an Advance ticket, it is a way of requiring you to use a specific train (often one on which actual seat reservations are not offered). When you get one of these reservations with a flexible ticket, it's meaningless.

 

[ejstubbs]

It's usually known as a 'counted place reservation', and indicates that they want you to use that particular train as part of your overall itinerary, rather than any other suitable connecting train. They are fairly common, a number of TOCS have been doing this for a few years.

Interesting. Can they enforce the use of that train in any way? If I don't make the 16:19 I might still have the option of taking the 16:30 Northern service to Preston, rather than the 16:49, which would have the advantage that Preston has rather more on-station facilities for waiting passengers than does Oxford Road.

When you get one of these "counted place" reservations with an Advance ticket, it is a way of requiring you to use a specific train (often one on which actual seat reservations are not offered). When you get one of these reservations with a flexible ticket, it's meaningless.

Ah, thanks, that's pretty much what I thought was the case. I think we can stand this thread down now!

 

[Starmill]

Can they enforce the use of that train in any way?

If you have an Anytime ticket, then you can use any train regardless of any reservations - counted place or otherwise.
If you have an Advance ticket you must travel on the reserved trains.

 

[AY1975]

If you have an Anytime ticket, then you can use any train regardless of any reservations - counted place or otherwise.
If you have an Advance ticket you must travel on the reserved trains.

Does this rule definitely apply even to the non-reservable leg of the journey? If it does, then at least from my experience, ticket inspectors on local and regional trains, such as Northern and TransPennine, rarely ask to see your reservation if you show a ticket for a connecting journey on another operator's longer-distance train, so in practice you can often get away with using another suitable connecting train, particularly if it will give you a more comfortable connection than the one shown on your reservation.

I often travel from Sheffield to London King's Cross via Doncaster, rather than with East Midlands Trains via the Midland Main Line to St Pancras, as I find it's often easier to get cheap Advance tickets with Virgin East Coast (and occasionally with Hull Trains or Grand Central) than with EMT. If I buy a through Advance ticket from Sheffield to King's Cross, it often gives me a rather tight (say 10 minute) connection at Doncaster, and I generally prefer to take an earlier train from Sheffield to Doncaster in case the one shown on my ticket runs late, causing me to miss my connection.

Sometimes an Advance ticket says "On specified VTEC trains and connections" which could be interpreted to mean that you must travel on the booked connecting local service as well, and sometimes it says "Valid on the booked services below and required connecting services" which looks as if it means you may use any suitable train to connect with the main part of the journey.

Back in the 1990s and early 2000s, when Advance tickets (or Apex as they were called then) were often issued on large format ticket stock similar to that used by Eurostar, they used to show your booked train for the main part of the journey, and if there was also a shorter connecting journey, that bit used to say "suggested service", meaning you could use any other suitable trains for that leg of the journey - surely that was a more sensible solution.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you have a reservation, it's a reservable leg. That's the definition of it.

Only if you do not have a reservation can you use any train (technically only non-reservable ones, but that's not really enforced as there's no proper way to find out).

 

[Starmill]

Strictly speaking it does apply. Many conductors never ask for reservations, either out of habit (they are used to working trains which are all unreservable, or which only became reservable recently), or because they are pushed for time and know they've other fares to collect, or because they don't want to get into an argument about travelling on reserved trains or not. This doesn't mean that the rule 'if you have a reservation, you must travel on the reserved train' does not hold. Finally, if it is not the first leg of your journey you would be allowed to take onward connecting trains anyway if your booked connection had been missed due to earlier delays.

If you wish to use an earlier train I wrote a very long post explaining this in detail here, although that was specific to Blackpool North. There are still many ways around the problem you describe with connections.

 

[chorleyjeff]

It's actually an Anytime ticket. (If I'm lucky I might get away from my meeting early enough to get the 16:19 Transpennine service direct to Edinburgh. If I'm very unlucky I'll have to get the 18:19.)

I think it's just a glitch in the system caused by me wanting a seat reservation on the Virgin service. I'm resigned to standing for a good part of the way to Preston, if not all of it. I suspect I would get pretty short shrift from the rest of the sardine-like passengers if I tried waving my seat reservation about and demanding that someone give up their seat to me!

Should get a seat after Bolton. Good luck.

 

[johnr57]

had something similar this week on TPE. Malton - Manchester stations return. Outward seat reserved with number but the return (1711 Ex Manchester Piccadilly) just had asterisks under the reservation. i actually booked the wrong day so got it changed - on the original ticket it says "no specific seat". i was only travelling first in the hope of actually getting a seat on that service. wonder what the recompense would have been if didnt get a seat? pictures attached

 

[route101]

Not too familar with these tickets but ive had Glasgow to Newcastle advances they dont specify the Queen St to Waverley train and often caught an earlier train.
I heard someone with a Scotrail advance which had no seat reservations which may be a new thing .

 

[route101]

Should get a seat after Bolton. Good luck.

I was standing until Wigan on the 1619 , too many seats reserved and too many people got on , train too short for the route.

 

[cf111]

Not too familar with these tickets but ive had Glasgow to Newcastle advances they dont specify the Queen St to Waverley train and often caught an earlier train.
I heard someone with a Scotrail advance which had no seat reservations which may be a new thing .

Between Inverness-Glasgow, Edinburgh & Wick/Thurso (possibly more routes but these are the ones I have used these tickets on) the very cheapest ScotRail advances do not come with a seat reservation and (in my experience at least) ticket offices will not issue you with one if you ask.

 

[yorkie]

... If I buy a through Advance ticket from Sheffield to King's Cross, it often gives me a rather tight (say 10 minute) connection at Doncaster, and I generally prefer to take an earlier train from Sheffield to Doncaster in case the one shown on my ticket runs late, causing me to miss my connection....

I am sure the connecting TOC appreciates your willingness to reduce their Delay Repay liabilities (for it is they who would have to compensate you for your entire journey from Sheffield to London if your connection was missed, and if the next available onward VTEC service got you to London 30 or more minutes later than originally booked), but if you travel with a different TOC they might not like it, though it is a grey area.

TPE Guards have told me they have been instructed to allow this, but it is unclear if they would still do so if your contracted connecting train was a Northern one.

If your arrival time into your final destination is time critical and Delay Repay compensation is of no use to you, and you are happy to take an earlier connecting train than the latest valid connection, why not specify additional interchange time next time you book?

Trainsplit.com allows you to specify change at: Doncaster and allow extra time there (on top of the minimum interchange time).

Back in the 1990s and early 2000s, when Advance tickets (or Apex as they were called then) were often issued on large format ticket stock similar to that used by Eurostar, they used to show your booked train for the main part of the journey, and if there was also a shorter connecting journey, that bit used to say "suggested service", meaning you could use any other suitable trains for that leg of the journey - surely that was a more sensible solution.

Yes, this was far better, I agree!