When is a renewal not a renewal?

[Polarbear]

I commute between Bache & Bootle New Strand for work & purchase monthly "Railpass" season tickets for this purpose.

Whilst I could purchase an annual ticket at £893.00, I prefer to buy monthly tickets to spread the cost, these being £89.30 each. Costwise, it works out about the same over a year by the time I take annual leave & other odd days.

This leads me to my question. My last monthly ticket expired on 14 August as I had a weeks annual leave. I came to renew my ticket today to start on Monday at Chester station & was issued a ticket staring today. I queried this and was told that the computer would not allow the issue of a "renewal" ticket as my previous ticket was no longer valid. After some discussion, the clerk said he would issue the ticket as a renewal, stating from next Monday.

I've looked through the leaflet regarding the "Railpass" ticket issued by Merseytravel, and also the National Conditions of Carrage, but can't seem to find anything specific regarding what actually constitutes a renewal, (or otherwise) of a season ticket.

The National Rail website provides the following information;

Buying a Season Ticket
When can I buy a ticket?

You may be able to buy your Season Ticket before the day it is due to start. However, to avoid misuse of season tickets, they can only be purchased a short period of time beforehand.

The table below summarises when you can purchase or renew your season ticket or Travelcard:

I need to;

7 Day Season Ticket or Travelcard
Season Tickets for 1 month or more

Buy a new season ticket or Travelcard

On the start date If the start date is a Monday (or Tuesday after a Bank Holiday), the season ticket may be issued from 0600 hours on the previous Sunday.

If the start date is a Saturday, Sunday or Monday (also Tuesday after a Bank Holiday), the ticket may be issued from noon on the previous Friday.If the start date is another day, the ticket may be issued after noon on the previous day.

Renew my existing season ticket or Travelcard

If the start date is a Sunday or Monday (or Tuesday after a Bank Holiday), the season ticket may be issued from noon on the previous Friday. If the start date is any another day, the ticket may be issued after noon on the previous day.

The ticket may be issued anytime up to SEVEN DAYS in advance.

Using that information, I have been purchasing new tickets within 3 days of the start date and this occasion was no different. However, the inference of the clerk today was that I should really apply for a new season ticket, which seems somewhat burecratic.

If anyone can shed some light on this for me, I would be most grateful.

Regards - Andy

Mods: Apologies for posting this in the wrong forum. Can someone move it to fares & ticketing please?

 

[First class]

Right, your barking up the wrong tree with the NRCoC/ National Rail. This is a PTE Ticket, (Merseytravel). Therefore their own terms and conditions apply to renewals. Merseyrail just sell them.

If you want to be fully governed by the NRCoC, you need to buy a National Rail season ticket from Bache-Bootle at £106.40 per month, or an annual for £1108, (a saving of £168.80)

Merseytravel say:

We issue Trio, Solo and Railpass tickets in
line with the bye-laws, regulations and
conditions of each company on whose
services the tickets are used (except in
relation to refunds and allowances).

 

[barrykas]

In "The Manual" (and Part 1 of the Retail Manual before it) a renewal is defined as one without a break in continuity.

In other words, if your season ticket expires on the 14th of August and you buy a new one to start from the 15th, that's a renewal. If, however, you wanted it to start from the 17th, that (according to Rail Settlement Plan/ATOC) isn't!

Incidentally, strictly speaking, if you renew a monthly or longer season ticket in advance, you should surrender the current one and the clerk should add the appropriate number of "Lost Days" to the new one to take that into account.

Cheers,

Barry

 

[Polarbear]

Thanks for the replies so far.

I knew that the Railpass was a Merseytravel product but didn't know how, if at all, the NCoC would apply to this ticket. I think I'll stick with it rather than shell out for the full price season!

My next question is, how are members of the public supposed to know about the details of such matters? I consider myself reasonably adept as regards the rules & regulations on UK rail tickets, but I cannot seem to find anything in the public domain regarding my original question. I would also add that I do not work for the railway in any capacity so do not have access to the same information as staff.

Granted, it's laid out in the fares manual which I assume can be accessed by members of the public, but surely something that potentially affects a significant number of rail users should be flagged up more prominantly?

 

[Mojo]

Unfortunately the PTEs are a rule upon themselves when it comes to creating tickets and confusing, varying Terms & Conditions amongst themselves.

 

[yorkie]

My next question is, how are members of the public supposed to know about the details of such matters? ?

That's the whole point - we aren't!

Do you think the TOCs want us knowing all this information, and do they want their fares structure & rules to be simple and easy to understand? Of course not! Because if so, we'd all be saving money.

The TOCs can't do anything about people who look up all the rules and prices and use them to their maximum benefit, but as long as most people just pay whatever the TOCs ask for, they're laughing all the way to the bank.

Out of interest, what are the benefits to you if it is counted as a 'Renewal' rather than a new ticket?

 

[glynn80]

Out of interest, what are the benefits to you if it is counted as a 'Renewal' rather than a new ticket?

The only benefit I can find is that you can purchase a new season in advance slightly earlier than you would be able to if you weren't renewing.

 

[philjo]

I seem to remember that when we were given discounts on season tickets by WAGN for poor performance on the GN route, you had to renew the ticket to start within a certain time after the existing ticket expired to qualify for the discount. Otherwis, you were sold a new ticket without discount. I think it was 5 days, but can't remember the exact details.
now we are on delay repay for each separate incident, this obviously does not apply any more for.

 

[glynn80]

I seem to remember that when we were given discounts on season tickets by WAGN for poor performance on the GN route, you had to renew the ticket to start within a certain time after the existing ticket expired to qualify for the discount. Otherwis, you were sold a new ticket without discount. I think it was 5 days, but can't remember the exact details.
now we are on delay repay for each separate incident, this obviously does not apply any more for.

I'm unsure what it previously was but it is currently 28 days:

Qualifying for a Passenger’s Charter discount

Holders of monthly or longer Season tickets and Travelcards are entitled to a Passenger Charter discount, advertised locally for each train Company, where performance has fallen below a given threshold. Discounts may be applied to renewal period adult and child Season Tickets, including Annual Gold Cards, but are not given for 7-Day Seasons/Travelcards or Child Education Authority Season Tickets.

To qualify for discount, the following conditions apply:

· Discounts apply to renewal Season Tickets/Travelcards of one month or longer;

· Renewal must occur within 28 days of expiry of the previous Season Ticket/Travelcard;

· The renewed ticket must be for the 'same or similar' journey (i.e. it must have the same or similar starting station, route and destination as for the previous ticket). Guidance will be given by the Train Company Customer Service Managers, in cases of difficulty;

· The renewed ticket must be for the same period or less as the original season ticket.

· If a customer submits a part-used Season Ticket/Travelcard for refund, before buying a new ticket for the same journey, the new ticket does not qualify for discount.

· When applying Passenger’s Charter discounts to Season Ticket renewals the amount should be rounded to the next 5p down (e.g. £212.04 is sold at £212.00)

Emphasis added personally

 

[Polarbear]

That's the whole point - we aren't!

Do you think the TOCs want us knowing all this information, and do they want their fares structure & rules to be simple and easy to understand? Of course not! Because if so, we'd all be saving money.

The TOCs can't do anything about people who look up all the rules and prices and use them to their maximum benefit, but as long as most people just pay whatever the TOCs ask for, they're laughing all the way to the bank.

Out of interest, what are the benefits to you if it is counted as a 'Renewal' rather than a new ticket?

Hmmm..sound about right for UK railways today!

What I'm trying to do here is save some money, and keep hold of my money for a bit longer. Better in my bank account than that of a TOC!

I work full time, but have 30 days annual leave, plus I work flexi time. Whilst I could buy an annual ticket, I would struggle to make the large upfront payment required for this & also don't see why someone else should benefit from me handing over a large amount of money upfront.

What I do therefore is purchase monthly tickets, but try to ensure as far as possible that these run up to, and commence after any leave or significant time I plan to have off work.

In this instance, my previous monthly pass ran until 14 August. I was off for a week and therefore had no ticket. As my origin station is Bache, which is unstaffed, I have to go to either Chester or Hooton a few days prior to the start date of my new monthly pass to buy my new ticket.

I understand that you are not allowed to buy a monthly pass more than 3 days prior to it's date of commencement & I can understand the reasons for this. However, I should be allowed to purchase a season ticket within that time frame, without having to effectively re-apply for a new ticket every time. OK, I could do this but it would cost the TOC a lot more in red tape, time & money if I handed a fresh application in every time I had a break!

Most clerks seem to appreciate the circumstances & happily issue the ticket as a renewal, rather than a new issue with the commencement date of the day of purchase. However, every now & again, I seem to run into this glass ceiling where I am deemed not to be playing by the rules.

If any other retail business behaved in this fashon, they would lose customers very quickly.

 

[Greenback]

I guess I'm lucky. My employer lends me the money for my annual and I pay them back monthly out of my slaary at 0% interest. I also my season for leisure travel when I'm on leave, to get to the nearest large city for sports entertainment and shopping!

Don't some TOC's have a direct debit scheme for season tickets?

 

[nedchester]

If any other retail business behaved in this fashon, they would lose customers very quickly.

But the railways think they are different by doing things like raising fares when prices are dropping for example!!

I guess I'm lucky. My employer lends me the money for my annual and I pay them back monthly out of my slaary at 0% interest. I also my season for leisure travel when I'm on leave, to get to the nearest large city for sports entertainment and shopping!

Of course in some enlightened European countries businesses are required to pay part or all of an employees season ticket to encourage public transport usage!

 

[Helvellyn]

Incidentally, strictly speaking, if you renew a monthly or longer season ticket in advance, you should surrender the current one and the clerk should add the appropriate number of "Lost Days" to the new one to take that into account.

Certainly that's true down here in the South East, particularly where the ticket being renewed is a TravelCard. The reason? Well a TravelCard only has an expiry date. So even if you renew it on a Friday for a week starting on the following Monday, it would still be able to be used over that weekend! That is why the previous ticket should be surrendered.

One thing SWT have done is to allow Monthly Season tickets to be renewed on any of the TVMs. Just enter your photocard number and postcode and it'll automatically offer to renew your monthly currently in the system if it hasn't expired (and within the timescales set down by ATOC for renewals). This saves queues at Ticket Offices on Sunday afternoons/Monday mornings, and where they are not open makes it easier. It just doesn't seem to have been widely advertised!