When do you give up? Are equal opportunities really equal?

[GingerRH]

So, my question is - when do you give up trying to get a job in the rail industry, or should you not give up?

After trying to 4 jobs, all of which getting to interview, I have been unsuccessful and find out via staff the positions advertised had been given to internal staff before the interviews/assessments where even completed but the interviews and job had to be advertised due to the equal opportunities laws etc.

So where does that leave people trying to get in?
Should the equal opportunities exist or what should be done to stop this from happening where entry level jobs are advertised just to fulfil legal requirements?

 

[WCMLaddict]

Just to make it clear, there is no employment, equality or any other law in UK or EU that requires companies to advertise jobs externally.

 

[NSEFAN]

The railway can't physically rely on internal staff forever, so new staff must be entering the system somewhere. What sort of roles did you apply for? Perhaps you've just been very unlucky?

 

[455driver]

What jobs are you applying for?
If it's jobs at the top of the tree then you will be up against a lot of internal candidates, it might be worth aiming a bit lower and then working your way up.

Maybe you don't interview very well, I don't!

Edit-
A colleague of mine had an interview with another TOC for a qualified train drivers job (taking a days leave and putting in the ATOC form letting his Managers know he wants to leave etc) only to find out afterwards that the job was already given to somebody else (with much less driving experience) but he used to work for the TOC as a buffet steward and Train Manager.
That was 'sorted' by the ASLEF rep as a favour.

So as you can see, it isn't just externals that suffer this.

 

[Canonite]

I would think an external job offer would be filled by external applicants.
They're gonna need new blood starting out sooner or later.

 

[crehld]

Just to make it clear, there is no employment, equality or any other law in UK or EU that requires companies to advertise jobs externally.

Indeed. I'm glad someone pointed this out.

If a company knows there are suitable internal candidate they would like to employ they would not go to the effort and expense of recruiting externally. It's time consuming and unnecessarily wastes resources. It's likely in your case the company was not actually aware of the internal candidate until they applied.

Like it or not, internal candidates are always in a stronger position given they have direct experience working for the company and managers appointing them are in a position to ascertain their ability to perform the role based on that person's performance over a long period of time (recruiting on the basis of a two hour interview is a huge risk for a manager to undertake).

Note it may have the reverse impact, however. If an internal candidate is weak and poor performing then this will significantly improve the chances of external candidates, who the appointment committee will have little knowledge of (including any potential flaws).

 

[GingerRH]

The jobs I have applied for are all entry level being platform staff and and ticket office etc.
it is rather demoralising finding out that though tbh.

Any advice for future interviews would be much appreciated.

Had an interview today for a position which only had 2 other applicants which got through to interview and the interviewer said to me at the end of the interview, maybe third time lucky as three is a lucky number which came across in a kind of sarcastic way which made me feel kind of strange and almost like a hint as to say well sorry not this time either..

 

[ComUtoR]

All opportunities are equal. All candidates are not.

 

[455driver]

All opportunities are equal. All candidates are not.

Even when that opportunity is given to somebody who didn't even apply but is mates with the people doing the selecting?

 

[Bodiddly]

All opportunities are equal. All candidates are not.

So true!

 

[ComUtoR]

Even when that opportunity is given to somebody who didn't even apply but is mates with the people doing the selecting?

That is an unequal candidate.

Nepotism is rife in the railway

 

[Bodiddly]

That is an unequal candidate.

Nepotism is rife in the railway

I can think of a very large number of different families who work for the railway in various roles. In today's society of equal opportunities and serious interviewing techniques you would think that nepotism could not play a part in hiring a suitable candidate but it's very much still who you know.
Just like any employer large or small, it can be disastrous for them if they hire the wrong person for the job. A recommendation from a friend or family member gives the heads up to who they are taking on.
I'm not saying it's right but that's how it is.

 

[dakta]

You should never give up on something you want.

You should however be realistic, if you fall at the same hurdle, it might be time to assess how you go about things, see if there's anything you can do outside the world of rails to improve your suitability or skills?

I've been applying since I was 20 - now 26, never had problems getting interviews or getting past the psych tests even - my main stumbling block has been interviews, like a lot of people I'm just not good at it.

I remember having to do a selection event, and getting whittled down to the last handful of people before being given the bad news, it hurts. But like I say, you should never give up on a career you want.

Just don't forget to look after everything else too. For me, it's probably worth doing a few other jobs just to build on general working life experience tbh.

Just 2p.

 

[TomBoyd]

The examples of nepotism are getting fewer and further between. At least where I am, in NR, there is a concerted effort to eliminate it. There certainly hasn't been any in our recent hiring.

I entered NR as an external candidate, with zero connections. I have a good CV, a good cover letter, and I perform well in interview. I'm also good at what I do. That has got me this far and will allow me to advance.

People complaining about opportunities not being equal smacks of sour grapes to me in the majority (I'm not saying nepotism never happens, but it always will in all industries).

2 Pieces of advice:

If you lack the skills and experience, go out and get them. Get relevant jobs or qualifications. Volunteer.

If you have all the prerequisites, and struggle to communicate them, learn how.

I think it is as simple as that. If you can't do either of those two things, then you're relying on luck. And in this job environment, you'll need a lot of it.

 

[G136GREYHOUND]

That is an unequal candidate.

Nepotism is rife in the railway

I think benevolent railway nepotism isn't too bad a thing. I think corrupt nepotism of nay nature is a very bad thing

 

[ComUtoR]

I'm unsure of where I stand. On one hand I do see it as "benevolent" as you say and that a large portion of the workforce tend to have a strong work ethic. That work ethic does run in the family; although not always.

On the other hand there is a widespread version of nepotism where some individuals are undeserving of their roles and are seen to be "looked after"

It is less prevalent than when I first started as the railway has come a long way in terms of employment and there has been a shift towards external applications. Internals do have an advantage and that will always happen with all employment.

The sour grapes issue I do see a lot of and from the standpoint of someone who has been that guy in the scary chair opposite I can understand why some on this board do not get employed.

Getting past the initial application stage is hard enough and I do find that, at least as a Driver, the railway is a great equalizer. The tests are the same for all applicants. Even though this is the case, there is still a high number of family and friends getting through.

As already posted. If you are falling down at a certain stage then that is something you must work on to resolve. Clearly there is an issue there. If people are passing all the tests then they have the ability. A fair portion fail at interview and I understand that it can be hard for those people who don't interview well but when I interviewed people I could tell those who don't interview well and those who were professional job applicants. There is usually something that stands out during an interview and that can mean the making or breaking of getting the job.

 

[MP33]

When I was going to work one morning there was a father and son in 1st class, the father must have been a senior railway manager with concessionary travel for family members. He was briefing his son on railway signalling systems, possibly for a job interview in that department.

Now the father would not be able to brief on every aspect of the job.

I wonder if the interview feedback was. The answer to the question how do I prevent another Quintinshill was not, ring my dad up and ask at the last minute.

 

[ComUtoR]

(...)
He was briefing his son on railway signalling systems, possibly for a job interview in that department.

I have taught my kids about the 4 aspect signal sequence, Track circuits and various other bits of my job. It's natural for kids to ask their parents about their jobs.

They are very young though

 

[theironroad]

It does seem there is not an equal playing field even for internal candidates for job opportunities. There is a mates culture at times, though I guess this is found in may industries.

The more annoying thing is that many of these companies preach they offer equal ops and that all candidates are considered on what they know/ their record, not who they know, which in many cases doesnt appear to be the case in reality.

 

[Skutter]

So, my question is - when do you give up trying to get a job in the rail industry, or should you not give up?

After trying to 4 jobs, all of which getting to interview, I have been unsuccessful and find out via staff the positions advertised had been given to internal staff before the interviews/assessments where even completed but the interviews and job had to be advertised due to the equal opportunities laws etc.

Did you get any feedback after the interview on your performance? Call the contact you were given before, or get in touch with the lead interviewer. It shows initiative and next time you apply you'll get remembered. Then you can change what they didn't like, and emphasise what they did like about you.

If it's a good job there will be lots of applicants, getting to the interview is a good sign and the more you do, the better you'll get. You know you can do the job, you just need to make them see you're the best one on the day.

 

[TDK]

So, my question is - when do you give up trying to get a job in the rail industry, or should you not give up?

After trying to 4 jobs, all of which getting to interview, I have been unsuccessful and find out via staff the positions advertised had been given to internal staff before the interviews/assessments where even completed but the interviews and job had to be advertised due to the equal opportunities laws etc.
So where does that leave people trying to get in?
Should the equal opportunities exist or what should be done to stop this from happening where entry level jobs are advertised just to fulfil legal requirements?

I would take with a pinch of salt what you hear to be fair

 

[320320]

That is an unequal candidate.

Nepotism is rife in the railway

Thank goodness. i wouldnt be driving trains without a healthy dose of nepotism.

 

[185]

The jobs I have applied for are all entry level being platform staff and and ticket office etc.
it is rather demoralising finding out that though tbh.

Any advice for future interviews would be much appreciated.

Had an interview today for a position which only had 2 other applicants which got through to interview and the interviewer said to me at the end of the interview, maybe third time lucky as three is a lucky number which came across in a kind of sarcastic way which made me feel kind of strange and almost like a hint as to say well sorry not this time either..

Try other operators further afield. My first job on the railway was 120 miles from home, and I got a flat for it in Leeds. Sometimes it's one rogue nasty operator constantly giving jobs to friends of friends or blocking people without reason - a friend and I proved this with five fake candidates we put in for Northern Rail, all with identical skills, three of the five got to assessment!

Moving further afield to different operators could be the window of opportunity you need.

 

[red2005]

I agree with TDK on this one!

the worst thing you can ever do on the railway is "find out off staff members"

some of the worst BS i have ever heard is from staff members who claim "to be in the know" and some staff members are not happy unless they are a part of some kind of rumour mill and they won't let a silly thing like the TRUTH get in the way of a good rumour!

When myself and a couple of other internal applicants got our driving jobs we were subject to some of the worst bitterness and BS i have ever encountered (and on the railway that is serious) ranging from "we had help from management" "we had bad records" " we didn't have the right personalities for the job" " there were others ahead of us in the queue".

all of which was total garbage!.......we were obviously the best people for the jobs at the time and given that i had filled in more applications and had more rejections over a 10 year period than most of them had even filled in application forms i wasn't gonna let anyone tell me i didn't deserve it. ......the problem some staff members have is they always think they have either failed miserably or that there is some kind of conspiracy taking place to prevent them getting the job which is not always the case....there are very fine margins.

not saying you are one of them mentioned above mate but you can do one of two things.....you can listen to the gossipmongers that live among us and take the above bitterness and jealousy route and never get the job or you can take on board what happened throughout the recruitment process, get your feedback and go back a better applicant next time.

As someone mentioned earlier it is the latter that will get you noticed by the decision makers, at the end of the day it is a competition and it is about making yourself stand out!.............yes if you go and see management for advice on how to be better next time you may be subject of the bad mouthers but in an industry where hundreds apply for most positions who is the bigger fool?......the one that seeks advice in order to improve and get the job?......or the person that just tries to wing their way through it and when they don't get the job it's because they think the world is against them?

Be VERY careful who you listen to mate..........these staff members who make out that they have given you some inside info to help you are probably the same one's who'll be slating you when you get the job over one of their favourites!

cynical maybe but the days of colleagues being happy for someone else doing well and getting on in the job are long gone.

And in answer to your question........it's simple........you don't give up!.........here is a question for you...........if you do give up do you honestly feel you deserved said job?

 

[jimbobsimmonds]

I think it's naive for people to think nepotism doesn't exist in all walks of life.. Not just the railways.

With regards to the railways... My ex is now a trainee driver. Weirdly, despite few qualifications from school, a 3 year gap between leaving college and having a job (which turned out to be a weekend job, that I got her through knowing people after I realized I was paying ALL of our bills and had been for a while! So I too am guilty of nepotism), she got through the sift and the interviews and offered a position.

Her dad being a driver instructor obviously had no bearing on that. Last time I spoke to her 2 of the other 5 in her "group" had fathers who were drivers or managers.

Fair play to her, she's a lovely girl and she passed the assessment fair and square and seems to be doing well. And I bear no grudge as I wouldv'e done the same. But I know that it is going to be a wee bit trickier for me to land a driver job. But I'll get there eventually! Just trying to look on the brightside that I have a good career already which is developing skills that should make me a great prospective trainee driver to a TOC. And that I'm only 25. Time is on my side!

 

[red2005]

The thing people need to remember is that nepotism has been around for donkeys years, and years ago you stood NO chance of getting into some industries unless you had a relative there or you were a friend of a friend.

In fact I'd say nepotism rears it's head a lot less these days especially in the top jobs as it really doesn't matter who you know, It's you that still has to sit there and pass assessments and get through paper sifts etc.

but we all need to ask ourselves a question.........if we were sweeping the floor at Maccies and a mate who is a conductor or driver walks in and says " hey i've had a word in the right ear and you are well on your way to becoming a conductor or driver" how many of us would say nah It's ok mate I'll take my chances against the other 2000 people?

nepotism only gets bad press when you're on the wrong end of it.......when in reality anyone with an ounce of honesty will admit they'd gladly use it in their favour should the opportunity arise.

is this very site not guilty of a form of nepotism? how many people come on here daily asking for hints and tips on how to gain an advantage on the competition they are facing to get a certain job........whether that be interview questions?........or a heads up on what assessments people are about to take?.........is this not still trying to gain some form of advantage?........we pretty much have a section of the website dedicated to it!

Granted they are not using friends or family per say but if we are talking what's morally right and wrong here and in the interests of consistency, If people truly believe nepotism and gaining unfair advantages is wrong shouldn't everyone applying/taking assessments or interviews be on the same page and not be seeking inside info on websites like this to gain an advantage?.......the principle is the same!

I hate the word "nepotism" we are all opportunists in some way shape or form whether we like to admit it or not and i truly believe that we'd all do what it takes to get our dream job especially if it made a better life for us and our families. To me the people who don't do what it takes and maybe don't tread the line of what is morally/socially acceptable in relation to getting a job are the foolish ones!

If you truly wan't the job do what it takes!

 

[DarloRich]

You should have a look at the STAR matrix for answering interview questions - it will help get your examples across.

 

[HLE]

All opportunities are equal. All candidates are not.

True.

To the OP, just keep trying. It's throroughly demoralising being knocked back again and again, but keep plugging away.

You won't get if you don't apply after all.

 

[Greenback]

There is a lot less nepotism across all employment sectors these days. I think it;s fair to say, though, that when a candidate, or one of their friends/relatives is known to a recruiting manager, it can give that candidate an edge.

It does suit some to believe that this sort of thing is a lot more common than it actually is. I went to half a dozen interviews with ATW and didn't get a job. It can be difficult to accept that there are others who are more suited, more skilled or experienced than you are. Or have simply performed better on the day.

 

[red2005]

There is a lot less nepotism across all employment sectors these days. I think it;s fair to say, though, that when a candidate, or one of their friends/relatives is known to a recruiting manager, it can give that candidate an edge.

It does suit some to believe that this sort of thing is a lot more common than it actually is. I went to half a dozen interviews with ATW and didn't get a job. It can be difficult to accept that there are others who are more suited, more skilled or experienced than you are. Or have simply performed better on the day.

Agree totally, the key is to find a positive, figure out where you went wrong and come back a better positive.

people forget it is actually a rarity to get a job on the railway first, second or even third time of asking........especially the top jobs.