When did Victoria replace London Bridge?

[Sad Sprinter]

When Victoria was built, did the LBSCRs main routes transition from London Bridge overnight or was there a balance still? Plus, now with Thameslink’s increased frequency, can we say London Bridge has once again become to main terminus of the Brighton Line?

 

[The exile]

When Victoria was built, did the LBSCRs main routes transition from London Bridge overnight or was there a balance still? Plus, now with Thameslink’s increased frequency, can we say London Bridge has once again become to main terminus of the Brighton Line?

Since the Thameslink services do not terminate at London Bridge, no. You could argue that it is the Brighton Line’s main London station….

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Since the Thameslink services do not terminate at London Bridge, no. You could argue that it is the Brighton Line’s main London station….

Sorry? Not sure I follow

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Sorry? Not sure I follow

You asked if it could be considered a main terminus station. Brighton Main Line trains, with the exception of a few locals like the Cats and Tats, do not terminate at London Bridge. They only use the through station part of the complex.

Where trains from the Brighton Main Line terminate at a London terminus (as opposed to continuing through the city to eventually rock up somewhere else), they do so on a far greater scale at Victoria, which would firm London Victoria as the main terminus of the route - I'd say.

 

[Gloster]

A quick look at Alan A. Jackson’s London Termini (Pan, 1969) suggests that the Brighton had already switched many of its services over to its Pimlico terminus south of the river after that opened in March 1858 and so would probably have just extended them to Victoria when it opened in October 1860. The book doesn’t go into detail, but some services would probably have continued to use London Bridge.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

You asked if it could be considered a main terminus station. Brighton Main Line trains, with the exception of a few locals like the Cats and Tats, do not terminate at London Bridge. They only use the through station part of the complex.

Where trains from the Brighton Main Line terminate at a London terminus (as opposed to continuing through the city to eventually rock up somewhere else), they do so on a far greater scale at Victoria, which would firm London Victoria as the main terminus of the route - I'd say.

Terminus maybe, but what about the main gateway? Especially for Gatwick and Brighton

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Feb 2026 ==

A quick look at Alan A. Jackson’s London Termini (Pan, 1969) suggests that the Brighton had already switched many of its services over to its Pimlico terminus south of the river after that opened in March 1858 and so would probably have just extended them to Victoria when it opened in October 1860. The book doesn’t go into detail, but some services would probably have continued to use London Bridge.

Ah that’s interesting

 

[8ace]

The largest passenger flow from Brighton is still VIC. As someone who finds the Thameslink services to London more useful this surprise me somewhat.

 

[zwk500]

Terminus maybe, but what about the main gateway? Especially for Gatwick and Brighton

It depends which bit of London you want. Victoria serves the West End & Westminster, London Bridge the South Bank and City of London. That's part of the reason that (at least until COVID) the Off-Peak Victoria services to Sussex were often supplemented with peak time additional workings to London Bridge.

If you work in the Civil Service, you'll likely want Victoria. If you work in the Financial industry, you may well want London Bridge. If you are going to a West End theatre - Victoria, Tate Modern or the Globe - London Bridge, etc...

 

[Magdalia]

In the 2024/25 origin destination matrix, Brighton's biggest station pair is still Victoria. Blackfriars is second, just ahead of London Bridge. Taken together, Blackfriars and London Bridge are bigger than Victoria.

It could be argued that for Brighton, Victoria is the most important London station, but Thameslink is the most important London route.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Good to hear Victoria is still the main terminus. I am surprised to hear about Blackfriars’ popularity. Even from Kings Lynn Blackfriars is a popular destination.

In the 2024/25 origin destination matrix, Brighton's biggest station pair is still Victoria. Blackfriars is second, just ahead of London Bridge. Taken together, Blackfriars and London Bridge are bigger than Victoria.

It could be argued that for Brighton, Victoria is the most important London station, but Thameslink is the most important London route.

 

[etr221]

A quick look at Alan A. Jackson’s London Termini (Pan, 1969) suggests that the Brighton had already switched many of its services over to its Pimlico terminus south of the river after that opened in March 1858 and so would probably have just extended them to Victoria when it opened in October 1860. The book doesn’t go into detail, but some services would probably have continued to use London Bridge.

While the Pimlico (Battersea Wharf) station opened in 1858, and Victoria in 1860, the 'direct' line between Balham and East Croydon didn't open until 1862 (and the link to West Croydon not until 1865) - until then there was only the line via Crystal Palace, also used by LCDR trains at that stage. While some trains did run to Pimlico, and then Victoria, C.Hamilton Ellis, in his 1960 book on the LBSCR makes a comment 'Victoria remained rather a backyard terminus for many years' - probably until its rebuilding at the beginning of the 20th Century. H P White (Greater London volume of the Regional History British railways) gives 1902 passenger figures of 23.7 million for London Bridge (Brighton side) and 18.6 million for Victoria (Brighton side).

The impression I have is that there was a steady change in the balance between London Bridge/the City and Victoria/the West End from the opening of Victoria in 1860 up to at least the first World War, if not later.

And the SER and LCDR had similar rebalancing between Cannon Street and Charing Cross, and Blackfriars/St Pauls/Ludgate Hill/Holborn Viaduct and Victoria. For many years, pre WW1, many trains - of all three companies - would serve both termini, by dividing at East Croydon or Herne Hill, or reversing at Cannon Street.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

While the Pimlico (Battersea Wharf) station opened in 1858, and Victoria in 1860, the 'direct' line between Balham and East Croydon didn't open until 1862 (and the link to West Croydon not until 1865) - until then there was only the line via Crystal Palace, also used by LCDR trains at that stage. While some trains did run to Pimlico, and then Victoria, C.Hamilton Ellis, in his 1960 book on the LBSCR makes a comment 'Victoria remained rather a backyard terminus for many years' - probably until its rebuilding at the beginning of the 20th Century. H P White (Greater London volume of the Regional History British railways) gives 1902 passenger figures of 23.7 million for London Bridge (Brighton side) and 18.6 million for Victoria (Brighton side).

The impression I have is that there was a steady change in the balance between London Bridge/the City and Victoria/the West End from the opening of Victoria in 1860 up to at least the first World War, if not later.

And the SER and LCDR had similar rebalancing between Cannon Street and Charing Cross, and Blackfriars/St Pauls/Ludgate Hill/Holborn Viaduct and Victoria. For many years, pre WW1, many trains - of all three companies - would serve both termini, by dividing at East Croydon or Herne Hill, or reversing at Cannon Street.

Very interesting, I do wonder why the LBSCR didn’t extend from London Bridge to Charing Cross before the SER did

 

[Gloster]

Having had a look at H.P.White’s volume of David & Charles’ Regional Histories, I get the feeling that the balance was for the longer-distance traffic, or as long as you can get on the LB&SCR, being shifted towards the new terminus before the suburban was. But there is nothing definite.

 

[etr221]

Very interesting, I do wonder why the LBSCR didn’t extend from London Bridge to Charing Cross before the SER did

The LBSCR's 'West End' terminus was Victoria (which also let them dominate the territory between the London & Croydon and L&SW lines) and, AIUI, Charing Cross was a reaction to it by the SER.

The other thing to remember is that all these West End and City extensions were very expensive - to the point of being barely affordable - and so largely built by nominally seperate companies.

 

[Mikey C]

The largest passenger flow from Brighton is still VIC. As someone who finds the Thameslink services to London more useful this surprise me somewhat.

Not having to travel from the coast on 700s probably helps the popularity of the Victoria service...

 

[Rescars]

A few random observations to add to the discussion. Both London Bridge and Victoria were always served by trains from more than company (principally LBSC and SECR and their predecessors), so were both key London stations for a wide range of routes. As to which was more important for the Brighton line, the famous Brighton Belle was a Victoria-Brighton service. By contrast there was a time when Brighton - London Bridge expresses slipped carriages at East Croydon for the lesser destination of Victoria. Even with all the current Thameslink permutations, Blackfriars nowadays lacks its pre WW1 connectivity, as advertised in the "destination stones" erected by the LC&D (such as Berlin, Vienna, Wiesbaden or St Petersburg)!

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

A few random observations to add to the discussion. Both London Bridge and Victoria were always served by trains from more than company (principally LBSC and SECR and their predecessors), so were both key London stations for a wide range of routes. As to which was more important for the Brighton line, the famous Brighton Belle was a Victoria-Brighton service. By contrast there was a time when Brighton - London Bridge expresses slipped carriages at East Croydon for the lesser destination of Victoria. Even with all the current Thameslink permutations, Blackfriars nowadays lacks its pre WW1 connectivity, as advertised in the "destination stones" erected by the LC&D (such as Berlin, Vienna, Wiesbaden or St Petersburg)!

The Southern concentrated continental traffic on Victoria after the grouping - Charing X had a brief revival for hovercraft traffic in the BR era.

 

[8ace]

Not having to travel from the coast on 700s probably helps the popularity of the Victoria service...

True they are not the best, but the GatEx premium isn't worth it for just over an hour's journey especially if you can get a seat in the declassified 1st class section. Also there are 4TPH to LBG/BFR/ZFD/STP as oppose to 2TPH to VIC which is probably why it's now the more important route as was stated above

 

[The exile]

The Southern concentrated continental traffic on Victoria after the grouping - Charing X had a brief revival for hovercraft traffic in the BR era.

Think the only current termini that have never offered Continental connections are Marylebone, Euston and Fenchurch Street (Tilbury was for further afield and the boat trains went from St Pancras - or was there ever a continental service from Tilbury?) Sorry -ca bit OT.

 

[Gloster]

Think the only current termini that have never offered Continental connections are Marylebone, Euston and Fenchurch Street (Tilbury was for further afield and the boat trains went from St Pancras - or was there ever a continental service from Tilbury?) Sorry -ca bit OT.

I think that there were boat trains from Fenchurch Street to Tilbury at some point. I have a recollection that a handful of EMUs had a whole coach dedicated to luggage, although these may have run from Liverpool St.

 

[etr221]

The Southern concentrated continental traffic on Victoria after the grouping - Charing X had a brief revival for hovercraft traffic in the BR era.

My understanding is that - as far as the Kent ports were concerned - it was actually an SECR initiative, after the connections in the Petts Wood area permitted it - implemented on resumption of civilian Continental services in 1919 after WW1.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Feb 2026 ==

I think that there were boat trains from Fenchurch Street to Tilbury at some point. I have a recollection that a handful of EMUs had a whole coach dedicated to luggage, although these may have run from Liverpool St.

My understanding is that initially Tilbury boat trains ran to Liverpool Street, and changed to St Pancras after the Midland took over the LT&S in 1912.

On electrification, yes, there were a a batch of EMUs with a non passenger motor brake (MBLV ?), became class 308/2. I don't recall whether the boat trains they worked ran to Liverpool Street or Fenchurch Street.

 

[The Pelican]

Think the only current termini that have never offered Continental connections are Marylebone, Euston and Fenchurch Street (Tilbury was for further afield and the boat trains went from St Pancras - or was there ever a continental service from Tilbury?) Sorry -ca bit OT.

Paddington for the continent? Perhaps, but which continent?

 

[Gloster]

Paddington for the continent? Perhaps, but which continent?

Via Weymouth, even if the Channel Islands was the main destination from there.

 

[edwin_m]

Paddington for the continent? Perhaps, but which continent?

Via Weymouth, even if the Channel Islands was the main destination from there.

Brunel's "Great Western" steamship offered onward connections from Bristol to New York.

 

[Rescars]

Think the only current termini that have never offered Continental connections are Marylebone, Euston and Fenchurch Street.

Marylebone! How different things might have been for the GCR if Sir Edward Watkin had completed his Channel Tunnel! Considering connections through London, the LNWR and the Sunny South Express proved you didn't have to rely on either London Bridge or Brighton to get a fast train to Brighton.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Brunel's "Great Western" steamship offered onward connections from Bristol to New York.

Paddington also had boat trains from Plymouth (but not in the reverse direction) - and Fishguard briefly - connecting off ocean liners from New York.

Euston had boat trains to and from Liverpool Riverside for the U.S. and Canada.

 

[43096]

Not having to travel from the coast on 700s probably helps the popularity of the Victoria service...

Which doesn’t help that much if the alternative is a 387 with equally appalling seats.

 

[sh24]

Not having to travel from the coast on 700s probably helps the popularity of the Victoria service...

Comfy Electrostar or nasty 700 ironing board. Not a difficult choice.

 

[The Pelican]

The first post in this RMWeb thread shows a Paddington-Brighton through train- did Paddington ever have carriages via the West London Line to Dover or Folkstone?

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/148730-pre-grouping-train-services-across-the-thames/page/8/

 

[Rescars]

The first post in this RMWeb thread shows a Paddington-Brighton through train- did Paddington ever have carriages via the West London Line to Dover or Folkstone?

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/148730-pre-grouping-train-services-across-the-thames/page/8/

There was a time when the GWR slipped broad gauge coaches from up Paddington trains which were worked through to the SER station at Victoria.