When carriage lights fail at night…

[Bletchleyite]

Speaking of interior lights on trains do any types of train have light sensors on them/fitted that can sense how dark/light it is and switch the lights on/off accordingly? I know Manchester's Metrolink have them fitted as they usually trundle around during the day (dependent on driver) with the lights off but as tram approaches a tunnel the lights automatically come on and then after a while of coming out of the tunnel they automatically switch off.

Hamburg's DT4 and DT5 units do, never saw it in the UK. With LEDs it is probably fairly pointless, consumption is miniscule.

Used to be common on the WCML in Mk2/Mk3 days. Once I recall the guard telling people to move, nobody did so he gave up.

 

[eoff]

I recall in the 80s travelling a long distance in the dark on a Mk2 which involved a stop at Basingstoke (so either a Midlands to Poole service or Waterloo to Exeter?). I really enjoyed the experience, as you could see the various town and country lights much more clearly than one normally would from inside a lit carriage, and it felt a much more relaxing experience. Appreciate not everyone would enjoy it though and that safety these days is considered much more carefully than in the past.

I had this experience from an England to Scotland train a few decades ago on a service where it was dusk when I boarded. It was great to be able to see so much out of the windows. Unfortunately the lighting was fixed within a couple of hours.

 

[Meerkat]

20 odd years ago had this on a train from Rome to Milan. It was daytime but there are a LOT of tunnels on that route!

 

[Western 52]

About 40 years ago we were on an Inverness to Edinburgh train after dark. The lights failed not long into the journey and the guard was unable to fix them. He made no attempt to move us to another coach, which was fortunate as the view of the snow covered Highlands illuminated by the moon was magnificent! These days it would probably be a different story.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Several years ago, Grand Central ran a "Hallowe'en Special" from Bradford to Doncaster and back. Main saloon lighting was turned off with just emergency lighting used, though the vestibule lighting was in normal operation. I don't think they tried this again though, so maybe someone in authority had an issue with it? Though I suppose it's just as likely that GC themselves decided it was more trouble that it was worth.

 

[Pigeon]

I used to love the Mk 1 compartments where you could switch the lights to "dim" or just take the bulbs out altogether. So much more relaxing and you can actually see what's passing outside. If I'm not trying to read then the only thing I really want the lights for is to make sure there isn't something horrible on my seat before I sit in it; that done (and station lights through the windows are adequate for that), although there are advantages and disadvantages either way, overall having the lights off generally wins, especially if the journey is long.

I most certainly do not count any spurious rubbish about "safety" as being among the disadvantages. The trouble with "safety" is that anyone arguing against it automatically sounds like a homicidal maniac and can therefore be ignored, so there is no defence against the ever-increasing ludicrous profusion of complex gross inconveniences and pointless restrictions in the cause of being quite unbelievably nesh about utterly insignificant hazards. The posts in this thread so far show very clearly that passengers mostly don't even really care if the lights aren't working, plenty of people positively prefer it, and the amount of operational hassle imposed on the railway by it being deemed "not allowed" is something everyone concerned could do without. Yet it's a waste of time pointing out that it used to happen all the time and nobody considered it "dangerous" or ever worried about it: someone will dig up a handful of instances of people stubbing their toe in the dark (which if you look into them turn out to be cases where they would have stubbed their toe anyway, but the darkness gets blamed for it) and this is automatically considered an irrefutably conclusive case for putting everyone to unlimited inconvenience for the sake of maintaining interrogation-level lighting 100% of the time. It's not even worth pointing out that the increased risk of people falling over and hurting themselves from having to get out of the train and in again one more time than they would otherwise need to far outweighs the chance of tentacled bogeymen materialising out of the darkness and pulling their face off, or whatever it is that's supposed to happen: some official is afraid of the dark so they decree that everyone else has to be also, and that's that.

 

[Devonian]

Speaking of interior lights on trains do any types of train have light sensors on them/fitted that can sense how dark/light it is and switch the lights on/off accordingly?

Great Western's last refurb of their first class Mk3 carriages included sensors to dim the lights in daylight and brighten the lighting in darkness automatically, but not to switch them off completely.

 

[TheSeeker]

Being able to switch the compartment lights off and heating up on the old carriage and loco hauled Brussels-Luxembourg service was lovely.

 

[Welly]

Agreed - and in the days before occupation of carriages with no lights was banned, I would usually deliberately seek out and sit in such carriages for exactly those reasons.

With the occasional "bonus" sighting - won't go into more detail here!

 

[Craig1122]

And if it was the last train of the night?

The London Underground defect rules have last train exemptions for a number of defects which would otherwise be out of service.

 

[geoffk]

I had this happen on a 365 to Kings Cross. Broad daylight but of course a heavily tunnelled route. Had a great time in the pitch black! Personally, I’d happily sit in the dark at night. You can see out better and I just like the relaxed ambience.

Interesting point about tunnels. Some years ago I was on a Buxton - Manchester train (it would have been a single 150) and, with the lights not working in one coach, the guard moved us all into the other, even though it was daytime, "because of the tunnels". None of the tunnels on this line is particularly long and the last one is before Middlewood, so I was surprised when passengers from Hazel Grove onwards were still being herded into the one coach.

 

[Steve Harris]

Used to be common on the WCML in Mk2/Mk3 days. Once I recall the guard telling people to move, nobody did so he gave up.

I'll second that, and add mk2 cross country services too.

 

[Taunton]

Speaking of interior lights on trains do any types of train have light sensors on them/fitted that can sense how dark/light it is and switch the lights on/off accordingly?

Hamburg's DT4 and DT5 units do, never saw it in the UK.

Certainly in the 1970s, the 3rd rail Hamburg S-Bahn units had a novel way of doing it, though not by sensing the light. The conductor rail was laid about 4 inches higher in the tunnel sections than outside, the light switch was attached above the collector shoebeam, you could see it vertically downward when outside, and at 45 degrees when pushed up in the tunnel. No electronics involved. I don't know if it still works like this.

 

[XAM2175]

The posts in this thread so far show very clearly that passengers mostly don't even really care if the lights aren't working, plenty of people positively prefer it, and the amount of operational hassle imposed on the railway by it being deemed "not allowed" is something everyone concerned could do without.

Based on a handful of anecdotes from rail enthusiasts. Totally solid conclusion

 

[bramling]

Based on a handful of anecdotes from rail enthusiasts. Totally solid conclusion

It does seem to be one of those things where circumstances have overtaken - that being that most people are now likely to have a phone, and in many cases not only that but their phone probably includes a torch too.

Personal opinion, however I’d say the inconvenience of a delay, cancellation or short-form is in most cases likely to outweigh any safety concerns from an unlit carriage. Anyone uncomfortable with it has the option to travel in a different carriage.

Unlit carriages are quite common on the Central Line due to a specific issue with the design of the trains. When it occurs, the affected carriages don’t seem to become any less busy than the others.

 

[py_megapixel]

Unlit carriages are quite common on the Central Line due to a specific issue with the design of the trains. When it occurs, the affected carriages don’t seem to become any less busy than the others.

On the Central line it's not uncommon for all carriages to appear unlit as the train arrives, because the windows are so heavily tinted. If you weren't paying attention you may not notice a carriage was unlit until you boarded it, at which point you wouldn't want to get off as you'd miss the train.

 

[Skie]

I had this happen on a morning commute on a Merseyrail 507 about four years ago.

Back before the refurbishment, the saloon lighting was switched on and off manually when required. Generally that meant hearing the familiar pinging of fluorescent tubes as you approached a tunnel.

But often it meant you’d be plunged into darkness on entry to the loop/link or Kirkdale tunnels when distractions meant the lights weren’t turned on in advance. Usually resolved by the first stop, but not always.

 

[woolos]

Did a railtour to cambridge from South wales once and one of the coach lights did not work from the stat of the tour as a party of 25 had made on booking .so argument for us to catch the service train to Paddington then we had taxis to King Cross and service to cambridge .on the way back they had a coach to cross London. As the tour was booked to a rare freight line of requesting for railtours I came back on the train in the coach with no lights

 

[Pakenhamtrain]

That’s usually because the MA has gone!

I’ve had units with some lights out before and kept them in service, really depends how bad it is and how many.

If it’s a quite a few but not all, I’d be concerned the MA has dropped a phase and on its way out.

That's where you need more than one MA.
On our Comeng fleet each 3 car unit has two MAs. One located on each motor car. If one does die or gets isolated the following equipment is lost in that 3 car unit: Half of the saloon lighting, one of the Air Conditioners, half of the headlights (both Low and High beam). In the car with the MA inoperative; it will lose the cab console lights, the rheo brake and the No1 end Air Conditioner

 

[jumble]

Some time ago, we were boarding a two-car class 150 for our journey home from work. It was dark outside, and the lights in the leading car were out. The well-lit rear car was fairly full, and passengers were now boarding the front car, not really worried about the lack of lights as most had lights from their phones. The guard made an apology announcement for the lighting problem, informing passengers that they may want to move to the rear car, if they wanted to.

Just before departure, there was a further announcement, informing us that we now had to move to the other car as the front car was being closed to passengers.

So, what are the rules in this situation? Presumably there’s a safety issue with failed lights, particularly around external doorways, but would such vehicles always be closed off to passengers? What would the situation be if there was insufficient room in other vehicles, or if the train was only a single car with no alternative accommodation?

Interestingly preserved railways do not seem to be troubled with this under grandfather rights
We have been on the Talyllyn Railway twice during their all night running that they used to do.
The original Victorian coaches do not have lights let alone being able to fail

We also went to Sandtoft Trolley bus Museum for the twilight running day and one bus equally did not have the lights illuminated on the top deck
In neither case did I feel it was dangerous

 

[Bletchleyite]

Back before the refurbishment

A long way back - probably mid 80s.

 

[marks87]

I was on a ScotRail 158 coming across the Tay Bridge toward Dundee a few years back when the lights went out.

I was on my way home after a long trip away so it was actually quite nice to look out the window and clearly see the lights of the city!

 

[OVS Flatbottom]

Used to be common on the WCML in Mk2/Mk3 days. Once I recall the guard telling people to move, nobody did so he gave up.

I remember this happening to me on an Anglia Railways Mk2 set on a late-night service from Liverpool Street to Norwich in summer 2003. I think the departure was actually delayed by problems with the lighting, but we eventually left London with it working; however, as I remember it, the coach we were in ended up in near-total darkness for most of the way from Ipswich to Norwich. I definitely don't remember any effort being made to move people to a coach with working lights, possibly partly because more than one vehicle seemed to be affected.

 

[edwin_m]

It used to be quite common for a Mk1 to have a flat battery, and for the lights to come on when it got to a speed where the dynamo (belt driven from the axle) would supply power. But on a journey from Cambridge to London circa 1984 one was the other way round.

 

[Skie]

A long way back - probably mid 80s.

Definitely into the 90's else I wouldn't remember!

 

[Mcq]

It used to be quite common for a Mk1 to have a flat battery, and for the lights to come on when it got to a speed where the dynamo (belt driven from the axle) would supply power. But on a journey from Cambridge to London circa 1984 one was the other way round.

I remember we were on one of Britain's finest rail tours - GB 2 with the Railway Touring Company - this week long extravaganza of all corners of the UK was heading towards Pitlochry at dinner time as dusk descended.
Dinner - 4 course silver service - was about to be served in our Mk 1 coach which had apparently discarded its charging belt sometime earlier - the lights quickly faded.
Soup was served to the highest professional standard to the glow of multiple phone lights.
The rest of the courses and evening proceeded as planned and in immaculate and splendid style - no excuses or withdrawal of service there.
The dynamo belt was magically replaced overnight.
Highly recommended.

 

[Donny_m]

Once about 8 years back the lights were broken in the day and they stopped at Severn tunnel junction and let us vote if we go through the Severn tunnel dark or alight and wait for them to come up with a plan.

Obviously everyone just told to stop being pathetic and get us through.

 

[Gareth]

A long way back - probably mid 80s.

Happened to me around then, as a very early memory (would've been 3 or 4 years old). Lights were out during the whole journey (it was daytime), including the tunnel section. Jet black between underground stations. Scared the hell out of me.

 

[D6130]

About 40 years ago we were on an Inverness to Edinburgh train after dark. The lights failed not long into the journey and the guard was unable to fix them. He made no attempt to move us to another coach, which was fortunate as the view of the snow covered Highlands illuminated by the moon was magnificent! These days it would probably be a different story.

Me likewise....in fact we may have been on the same train (16 42 Inverness-Edinburgh, hauled by 47 009, on Saturday 10th January 1981?).
The carriage in which I was travelling - an early vacuum-braked Mark 2 TSO - contained a number of folk musicians returning from a festival in Shetland and lighted candles () were placed on the tables, fiddles, accordions and other instruments were produced and a full-blown ceilidh ensued for the rest of the journey! Can you imagine unguarded naked flames being used in a train nowadays? (See also the "Back in the Day" thread in four days' time).

 

[Bletchleyite]

A more recent one that springs to mind - sometimes when changing between AC and DC, the Southern Electrostars on the MK service shut down for long enough for lighting to drop to emergency (a couple of tubes per coach).

I don't remember the exact time Merseyrail changed to "on all the time" but I do remember it happening.