When a late train is on time

[mumrar]

So, as I'm sure most people are aware we have this thing where TOCs are allowed to be so many minutes late and still class it as on time. Tonight I was on 1N69 19:21 from Stansted-Birmingham. We left late because of a traincrew break at 19:47, but managed to pull back time at various locations. When we arrived at New St we were 10 minutes late, which I believe is classed as on time under XCs terms. What are peoples thoughts on this?

 

[Dai.]

I class that as late.. soon you might turn into plumbers, you'll turn up an hour later if you feel like doing the job!


But I've been on XC Trains from Cardiff to Birmingham and further a couple times and you have generally been ontime or early so I can't really complain.


Thinking about it you might be the smiling driver in this picture -http://brails.ukgeeks.co.uk/p58603785.html

 

[mumrar]

Thanks for the promotion, but I'm a lowly guard. To some degree I agree it's late, but I bet I couldn't ask a car driver for a lift to Nottingham from Cardiff and expect him to predict our arrival, but slag him off he deliberately quotes too long

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I think you have to get things in perspective, a 10 minute delay on a three hour journey is nothing.

It's unbelievable that the train only caught up 15 minutes though, I though it was standard to have 10 minutes catch up time for every 1 hour of journey time built into the timetable!!!!!!

 

[Failed Unit]

I think you have to get things in perspective, a 10 minute delay on a three hour journey is nothing.

It's unbelievable that the train only caught up 15 minutes though, I though it was standard to have 10 minutes catch up time for every 1 hour of journey time built into the timetable!!!!!!

If you get a clear run, I tend to find that when you lose you "slot" you can't catch up because of everything else ahead. Take the x.00 from Edinburgh to London, if they leave before the XC the will arrive early at most calling points. If they leave behind the XC they will lose more time all the way to York as the can't pass the XC (the won't even let the London service pass if the XC calls at Dunbar). By the time you get to Doncaster area you are held up to let a Leeds service into the station first (again you are not due to stop their but you are late so the Leeds service has priority). A 7 minute delay is soon 20 when you arrive at London.

I your example it is annoying for the person that missed the connection at say Peterborough to know the train was classed as on-time at Birmingham. I hate the way TOC's excessively pad between the last 2 stops. I wish that performance was recorded at all stations!

 

[Oswyntail]

.... I wish that performance was recorded at all stations!

Absolutely. If this means slower runs between stations, then so be it. It is irrelevant to me if my train is on time into London when I have missed my connection at Peterborough.
But, as with so much, this is the railway industry looking at its own navel and forgetting that it is only there to provide for customers. The whole thing needs a complete shake-up.

 

[starrymarkb]

Padding is a fact of life though, its how SBB have their on time reputation, the train will have booked waits at major stations on route...

But their network isn't as intensive as ours

 

[Failed Unit]

Absolutely. If this means slower runs between stations, then so be it. It is irrelevant to me if my train is on time into London when I have missed my connection at Peterborough.
But, as with so much, this is the railway industry looking at its own navel and forgetting that it is only there to provide for customers. The whole thing needs a complete shake-up.

An interesting example of this is the 0700 Edinburgh - Glasgow service, it used to stop at Polmont @ 0723 and Falkirk High at 0728 arriving at Glasgow at 0750. A period went by when it used to leave Polmont and Falkirk early, it happened so frequently transport Scotland got involved and Mary Dickson even put an apology in the paper. (After transport Scotland got involved it was discovered that trains often left early on the fife lines as well) Leaving early didn't get the train into Glasgow any earlier as it got stuck behind the Lenzie local.

Anyway Scotrail didn't like the kicking they got from transport Scotland so it now is booked to call at Polmont at 0719 and Falkirk at 0724, arriving at Glasgow at 0751. It resolves the issue of running early, as it can never happen, it is normally about 3 minutes late until Falkirk. Not the end of the world but why Scotrail felt the need to do this rather than wait at Polmont when the train was running early is mystery.

Another strange timetable change is Edinburgh - Dunblane trains now are all booked to leave Polmont at x.29. I don't know what is in the working timetable but they are always late, they used to be booked to leave at x.30 but in reality always arrived (and still do) at x.32.

These delays are small fry, but I am sure that most passenger want a train to be timetabled at the time it consistantly arrives!

 

[The Planner]

Id wager that a lot of this is down to public times departing earlier than working times, which is a fairly widespread practice. If the public says 29 and the WTT 32 then they have the option to leave at either, it just appears that they are 3 minutes late.

 

[mumrar]

This train didn't make up the delay between the last two stops only, it gradually picked up in one or two minute pieces. The only ridiculously timed bit is between Audley End and Cambridge at 23 minutes, but the signaller always uses this if you're on time.

 

[The Planner]

This train didn't make up the delay between the last two stops only, it gradually picked up in one or two minute pieces.

Sounds like engineering allowance then, all trains have it in them to cover for TSRs etc... if there are none, then the trains picks time up. Also, if it has pathing time in it to keep a headway or junction margin and the train infront isnt in its path or not running then it will gain.

 

[northwichcat]

Trains can arrive at their final destination 2 minutes early and be late. If you take Stockport-Manchester Piccadilly trains that start and terminate at Manchester Piccadilly and run non-stop between the two stations they are quite often given an extra 5 minutes 'recovery time' northbound, so an on time train can arrive at Manchester Piccadilly 5 minutes early.

 

[Mojo]

What's the most obvious slack time you can think of? Chiltern services terminating at Birmingham Snow Hill are allocated 10 mins for the 1km between Moor Street and Snow Hill.

 

[The Planner]

Im so glad you mentioned that one and not me
Chilterns have a -5 public time allowance departure against the WTT at Moor St.

 

[Failed Unit]

In the old timetable that has just finished you had the following

Darlington 1315, Durham 1331, Newcastle 1351 (XC terminates)
Darlington 1320, Newcastle 1350 (East Coast - Glasgow)

Yes the XC could have been passed at Durham, but the new timetable now has the arrival at 1346, 31 minutes for this journey is more likely.

When XC was operated by Virgin there used to be cases when the following SWT "overtook" the XC train between Brockenhurst and Bournemouth - no bad on a 2 track railway!

Most example I know are just 5 minutes more. For example between Newcastle and Durham it takes 13 minutes, but if you terminate at Newcastle it takes 19. Haymarket - Edinburgh can take 8 minutes, but considering the waits you can get at Princess Street gardens that isn't so bad. Motherwell - Glasgow for IC services is generious as well.

 

[Mojo]

Interestingly enough I've checked the timetable and it seems the semifast services only get 7 mins whereas the fast ones get 10 mins.

The 10.50 from Marylebone did quite well today; 10 mins late at Moor St and 1 min late at Snow Hill

 

[tony_mac]

that's got to be annoying - you can be effectively 20 minutes late at the penultimate stop, but the train is officially counted as on-time.

I don't see why, now that all the data is computerised, they can't count late-running at every station and average it. That should at least put an end to this ridiculous padding of the timetables at the end of the journey. They will obviously just spread the padding over the journey, but it should be more realistic.

It could actually work in the favour of the TOCs; where trains are delayed due to congestion at the terminus then at least only one stop will be counted as late instead of the entire journey.

 

[The Planner]

It wouldnt solve it, padding spread over the journey would only get you to an intermediate station early where you would sit waiting for the departure time. Unless PPM is radically overhauled so it isnt based on the end point then it wouldnt work and I cant see anyone wanting to change it as it suits both the TOC/FOCs and NR. PPM is drilled down a lot more than you tend to see in the press, it goes down as far as headcode.

 

[northwichcat]

What's the most obvious slack time you can think of? Chiltern services terminating at Birmingham Snow Hill are allocated 10 mins for the 1km between Moor Street and Snow Hill.

Check the Manchester Oxford Road - Manchester Piccadilly timing on Llandudno-Manchester Piccadilly or Salford Central - Manchester Victoria on any train that calls at both. I think the first is also about 10 min but don't have a timetable handy to check.

 

[Oswyntail]

.... Unless PPM is radically overhauled so it isnt based on the end point then it wouldnt work and I cant see anyone wanting to change it as it suits both the TOC/FOCs and NR. .....

And there we have it. F##k the passenger so long as it's convenient for the operators.

 

[snowkitten]

As someone who works in the Control (Don't all boo, hiss) I personally hate PPM. Giving 9 mins and 59 secs 'allowence' on a route such as one of ours between Norwich and Liverpool is ridiculous. It is only based on what time the service reaches the destination. Despite what may have happened on route (And with that particular route goingh through 5 different NR zones anything could happen).

My company has now gone on board for RTR (Right Time Railway). Which fiddles the figures even more. Now it's ok if we've had to restart a service on route (Such as Nottingham) due to late running as it reaches the final destination on time (Or within PPM)! Which I think is total and utter rubbish.

IMHO Late is late.

 

[krus_aragon]

Giving 9 mins and 59 secs 'allowence' on a route such as one of ours between Norwich and Liverpool is ridiculous.

Particularly when the same allowance is given to, say, the Cardiff Bay shuttle which doesn't even take five minutes end-to-end. If it were measured at each stop along journeys, then perhaps it'd make sense.

 

[The Planner]

10 minutes is only on long distance services, shorter ones work off 5.

 

[Oswyntail]

Particularly when the same allowance is given to, say, the Cardiff Bay shuttle which doesn't even take five minutes end-to-end. If it were measured at each stop along journeys, then perhaps it'd make sense.

Perhaps lateness should be measured in terms of percentage of overall journey time.

 

[johnb]

PPM is mostly good for passengers, too - e.g. for the vast majority of Virgin pax, arrival time at Watford or Milton Keynes is completely irrelevant. Waiting there to catch up with the timetable, rather than usually arriving early (and always on time) at Euston, would make things worse not better.

 

[royaloak]

Perhaps lateness should be measured in terms of percentage of overall journey time.

Good idea, so the Dundee to plymouth would end up 45 minutes late and still be classed as on time, good idea, although what we have is far from perfect, it is probably about the best we can have without rewriting the way it is all measured. Now thats not a bad idea though.

 

[87015]

...rewriting the way it is all measured. Now thats not a bad idea though.

Five minutes late arriving at any station en-route = PPM failure. Simple!

I'll give them five minutes but I don't regard nine minutes late as 'on time'.

 

[MKB]

I've never understood the need to classify a train as late or on-time based on an arbitrary measure of lateness. Surely, from a statistical point of view, what you're interested in are such measures as the mean and standard deviation of total minutes late?

 

[ChrisTheRef]

Perhaps lateness should be measured in terms of percentage of overall journey time.

Agreed. My issue is with DeplayRepay schemes.

Virgin - for example - operate one service per hour near me.
Merseyrail operate one every 15 mins (4 per hour!)

Virgin will give me at least a percentage of my ticket back after a 30 minute delay, and all of it for more than 60.

Merseyrail won't listen until the delay is over 30 mins, which would be 2 hours if Virgin did the same