Wheelslipping badly

[heart-of-wessex]

Hi all,

I wondered where to put this, so I decided to post it here...

..But anyway the point of this thread is to start a discussion about Wheel slipping. Have you ever had a driver that wheelslips almost uncontrollably?

On Saturday, I was on a Class 150 heading to Bristol leaving Keynsham, and fair enough there are a lot of line side trees, so after she thrashed out of the station we slipped and thus the engines cut to idle, but then she thrashed it back to full power, and we slipped again and again, until the 5th time the power went to idle for a bit, then to notch 1/2, and only a split second later back to full power and slipped yet again.

Surely you wouldn't just keep thrashing it every time you slipped until you got out of the affected tracks??

On the way back at Keynsham we actually slid into the station, coming to a stop a bit further than normal at the other end of the station!
We did slip out the station again, and the driver did keep thrashing until the 3rd or 4th time he went into notch 1 or 2 and kept it there for a bit and worked slowly up the notches and we had grip then.


Do you know of many drivers that keep slipping by powering out all the time, or sliding along instead of braking?



Cheers,

James.

 

[jv3531]

Had a 101 slide through stonehouse one day and stopped by the foot crossing. Driver had to set back. Was not amused at the time because we were about to board it.....

Also, 14x and 15xs are notorious for slipping around c&d, yate areas and also on the kemble branch.

Was on Edgeware - wimbledon section week before last, 69 stock was slipping left right and centre vertually everytime it accelerated in the open sections!

 

[heart-of-wessex]

Saying that me and DJC_158 was on the severn and solent rover and we went to Gloucester from Swindon on the Class 150 and stormed up the line, coming back on a Class 180 it could not get grip anywhere! was pretty much slipping all the way to Swindon

 

[jv3531]

There are, just like any other vehicle some good and some bad. It does also again depend on the driver. Local drivers can often perform better than drivers that may not do the run so often as with all route knowledge, it comes with practice and you generally know when, how and where to control your unit.

 

[westcoaster]

it can also be down to the unit as well no two trains are the same and each different unit is different, not all class 150's are fitted with sanders.

when you say " Do you know of many drivers that keep slipping by powering out all the time, or sliding along instead of braking? " in this weather you have no control over the sliding it just happens, us drivers have to follow the company's profesional driving policy.
no-one wants to slid its the worst feeling trust me the first time it happens it puts the wind up you.

 

[heart-of-wessex]

Sorry westcoast, the sliding thing was meant to say something like 'have you ever had a train thats slid along a platform'. The way I put it sounded like it was a driver fault, not whats its supposed to read, sorry.

I thought most 150s would have sanders actually.

Surely though powering out a station like mad doesn't help, and then keep constantly throwing the power up after?


cheers,

James.

 

[upyourjunction]

Sorry westcoast, the sliding thing was meant to say something like 'have you ever had a train thats slid along a platform'. The way I put it sounded like it was a driver fault, not whats its supposed to read, sorry.

I thought most 150s would have sanders actually.

Surely though powering out a station like mad doesn't help, and then keep constantly throwing the power up after?


cheers,

James.

If starting on a gradient the Driver will have to give it "the big licks" to even move especially with a unit like a 150. Of course it gets even trickier in the leaf fall season & thats where the drivers experiance gets him through.

 

[jv3531]

When 150s and infact most of the 14x/15x series were introduced the origional idea was that in order to achieve maximum speed, the desired method of acceleration was to apply full power from take off. Sensors (later WSP) would detect any lengthy amount of wheel slip and power off the appropriate bogie(s) to compensate until all wheels grip and provide constant acceleration. However, this was later modified as it was found that this would not always function properly and the defensive driving technique was adopted by TOCs to provide more efficient driving techniques designed to prevent wear and tear and save on fuel consumption. The idea of this is that particuarly where wheelslip takes place, you should notch up gently until full traction can be obtained and then apply higher power. This does not always work, as with driving a car, bus or lorry as every driver develops their own techniques, as we develop sometimes our own bad habits....

 

[Jim]

When 150s and infact most of the 14x/15x series were introduced the origional idea was that in order to achieve maximum speed, the desired method of acceleration was to apply full power from take off. Sensors (later WSP) would detect any lengthy amount of wheel slip and power off the appropriate bogie(s) to compensate until all wheels grip and provide constant acceleration. However, this was later modified as it was found that this would not always function properly and the defensive driving technique was adopted by TOCs to provide more efficient driving techniques designed to prevent wear and tear and save on fuel consumption. The idea of this is that particuarly where wheelslip takes place, you should notch up gently until full traction can be obtained and then apply higher power. This does not always work, as with driving a car, bus or lorry as every driver develops their own techniques, as we develop sometimes our own bad habits....

FGW drivers seem quite pleased with the new WSP on our 158's!

 

[devon_metro]

Sorry westcoast, the sliding thing was meant to say something like 'have you ever had a train thats slid along a platform'. The way I put it sounded like it was a driver fault, not whats its supposed to read, sorry.

I thought most 150s would have sanders actually.

Surely though powering out a station like mad doesn't help, and then keep constantly throwing the power up after?


cheers,

James.

1P14 slid through Charlbury today and had to reverse

 

[Jim]

18.25 PLY-EXD last night slid to a stand on Devon Banks - set back to Plymouth! Nearly a week before 09.30 PZ-Manchester did the same, only in Cornwall!

In terms of skiding - it's horiable. It feels bad to be on a train that does it - and I know its a drivers worst nightmare.

It's been worse around the Trowbridge area this year, due to the fact there is currently no water cannon from Friday Night - Monday mid-morning, hence first few trains have very bad adhesion...

 

[Donny Dave]

Worst train I've been on for slipping was an early morning service out of Shrewsbury. Not too bad for the first few miles to Chester, but as soon as the driver went to brake for a station, away we went. The line was that bad, the train was even slipping in notch 1 while trying to get away from the station.

 

[class 313]

There was an overshoot the other day on a pacer, forgot where. I think it was 142021

 

[driver9000]

Wheelslip detection is automatic on 150s. When the speed probes detect slip (7% difference between probes) power is dipped, once the probes have realigned power is returned to the previous notch providing the driver has left the handle alone. If wheelslip is still occuring the process will begin again, if wheelslip is prolonged the driver should reduce power to reduce the risk of damaging the tyres and the rails. TOCs issue drivers with instructions and advice for train handling in leaf fall and trainees are given 'skid pan' training using either a simulator or a fairy liquid train with is due tyre turning and is driven over a slippery solution to mimic wheelslide conditions. Personally at this time of year I drive with care on all days using low power notches to start away and I increase my braking distances to give the train a sliding distance and to ensure I would be able to control the train if she did pick her wheels up.

 

[devon_metro]

18.25 PLY-EXD last night slid to a stand on Devon Banks - set back to Plymouth! Nearly a week before 09.30 PZ-Manchester did the same, only in Cornwall!

In terms of skiding - it's horiable. It feels bad to be on a train that does it - and I know its a drivers worst nightmare.

It's been worse around the Trowbridge area this year, due to the fact there is currently no water cannon from Friday Night - Monday mid-morning, hence first few trains have very bad adhesion...

Along with 0930 (??) Plymouth - Paddington, ended up around 90 minutes late through Yeovil JN!

 

[class 313]

18.25 PLY-EXD last night slid to a stand on Devon Banks - set back to Plymouth! Nearly a week before 09.30 PZ-Manchester did the same, only in Cornwall!

In terms of skiding - it's horiable. It feels bad to be on a train that does it - and I know its a drivers worst nightmare.

It's been worse around the Trowbridge area this year, due to the fact there is currently no water cannon from Friday Night - Monday mid-morning, hence first few trains have very bad adhesion...

Slipping isn't that bad (feeling wise). From the pantograph car anyway, just jolting around really...

I also wouldn't say its a drivers worst nightmare, I can think of a lot worse things...

 

[TDK]

Hi all,

I wondered where to put this, so I decided to post it here...

..But anyway the point of this thread is to start a discussion about Wheel slipping. Have you ever had a driver that wheelslips almost uncontrollably?

On Saturday, I was on a Class 150 heading to Bristol leaving Keynsham, and fair enough there are a lot of line side trees, so after she thrashed out of the station we slipped and thus the engines cut to idle, but then she thrashed it back to full power, and we slipped again and again, until the 5th time the power went to idle for a bit, then to notch 1/2, and only a split second later back to full power and slipped yet again.

Surely you wouldn't just keep thrashing it every time you slipped until you got out of the affected tracks??

On the way back at Keynsham we actually slid into the station, coming to a stop a bit further than normal at the other end of the station!
We did slip out the station again, and the driver did keep thrashing until the 3rd or 4th time he went into notch 1 or 2 and kept it there for a bit and worked slowly up the notches and we had grip then.


Do you know of many drivers that keep slipping by powering out all the time, or sliding along instead of braking?



Cheers,

James.

What you describe is poor driving. In a class 150 you get a good response from notch 1 upwards so the driver had no need to thrash the train in higher notches.A class 150 generally only has WSP (Wheel slip detection) on accelleration and not on braking. If the wheels lock on a 150 under braking the driver can only release and re apply the brake mannually, you only get sand in brake notch 3 or emergency under braking and can apply sand on accelleration with a button in the cab. This description is for a 150/2.

 

[heart-of-wessex]

This was indeed a 150/2, and just what i thought TDK, a bit of bad habit driving, it seemed if she used notch 1 or notch 2, she couldn't wait for anymore than a second to get it to full power.

It reminded me as well she was a bit of a signal crawler, fair enough you get a better pull away (this was the signal before Bath) so she crawled and crawled until she was right up to the signal which was red she slammed the brakes on! cue me flying forward a bit off the seat!!

 

[EE Type 3]

This was indeed a 150/2, and just what i thought TDK, a bit of bad habit driving, it seemed if she used notch 1 or notch 2, she couldn't wait for anymore than a second to get it to full power.

It reminded me as well she was a bit of a signal crawler, fair enough you get a better pull away (this was the signal before Bath) so she crawled and crawled until she was right up to the signal which was red she slammed the brakes on! cue me flying forward a bit off the seat!!

Sounds like she should could do with a refresher!

 

[upyourjunction]

Slipping isn't that bad (feeling wise).

I also wouldn't say its a drivers worst nightmare, I can think of a lot worse things...

I wouldn't expect you to know this, but the reason its a Driver's worst nightmare:
Think red signal, Slide by it, into another train, maybe head on! people Injured or Killed, the first one being the Driver!

 

[driver9000]

Indeed, a slide is the worst thing that could happen to a driver, you have your work cut out to regain control and stop at your disired location. I'll echo upyourjunction by also saying sliding up to a red with unimaginable consequences leading to at worst you and your passengers not going home that day is a frightening prospect.

Last Autumn I nearly had such a slide, already running at heavily reduced speed I encountered a single yellow, I put the brake into step 1 on sighting the signal, the speedo fell to 0, after releasing the brake wheel rotation returned and I tried again, same thing again. I had now gone over the summit of the climb and now on a steep falling gradient doing approximately 25mph, I sighted the red at the end of the straight and the level crossing, still with traffic going across it (a good 3/4 mile away) I applied the brake once more and the unit slide once again speedo to 0 I threw it into Emergency and was sliding towards the level crossing and signal - with the set picking up speed!! Luckily the unit gripped eventually and I came to a stand on the magnet for the signal, as the barriers lowered.

New underpants for me, new tyres for the train!

Not all TOCs have fitted sanders to 150s etc, the 15x units I work have no sanders fitted at all. We have WheelSlip Protection only. 14x units also have no sanders and are recognised as being the worst performing units at this time of year.

 

[mbonwick]

Hardly surprising really, no sand and not much weight in them to aid adhesion.

 

[driver9000]

Hardly surprising really, no sand and not much weight in them to aid adhesion.

Fewer wheels on the rails too. The drivers that work them know the pitfalls of them and drive accordingly.

 

[class 313]

I wouldn't expect you to know this, but the reason its a Driver's worst nightmare:
Think red signal, Slide by it, into another train, maybe head on! people Injured or Killed, the first one being the Driver!

Indeed, a slide is the worst thing that could happen to a driver, you have your work cut out to regain control and stop at your disired location. I'll echo upyourjunction by also saying sliding up to a red with unimaginable consequences leading to at worst you and your passengers not going home that day is a frightening prospect.

Last Autumn I nearly had such a slide, already running at heavily reduced speed I encountered a single yellow, I put the brake into step 1 on sighting the signal, the speedo fell to 0, after releasing the brake wheel rotation returned and I tried again, same thing again. I had now gone over the summit of the climb and now on a steep falling gradient doing approximately 25mph, I sighted the red at the end of the straight and the level crossing, still with traffic going across it (a good 3/4 mile away) I applied the brake once more and the unit slide once again speedo to 0 I threw it into Emergency and was sliding towards the level crossing and signal - with the set picking up speed!! Luckily the unit gripped eventually and I came to a stand on the magnet for the signal, as the barriers lowered.

New underpants for me, new tyres for the train!

Not all TOCs have fitted sanders to 150s etc, the 15x units I work have no sanders fitted at all. We have WheelSlip Protection only. 14x units also have no sanders and are recognised as being the worst performing units at this time of year.

Very good points there, I never thought it could really get that bad! But I can imagine a lot of things start going through your mind when you're approaching a red and you're just not stopping.

 

[P156KWJ]

The 313s and 319s (313s more so) have quite bad wheelslip sometimes, especially this time of year. I was on a 313 coming out of Finsbury Park going to Alexandra Palace and it was quite wierd! 319s sem to wheelslip out of St Pancreas a lot too

 

[class 313]

The 313s and 319s (313s more so) have quite bad wheelslip sometimes, especially this time of year. I was on a 313 coming out of Finsbury Park going to Alexandra Palace and it was quite wierd! 319s sem to wheelslip out of St Pancreas a lot too

When on wet rail (sometimes even on dry!) 319s slip. But of course a lot more on wet!

An example. 319 departing St Pancras High Level Platforms, slipping all the way to West Hampstead! (Each time the power drops or the motors whine up/down is when it slips)

[youtube]cb3zn4662fE[/youtube]

 

[EE Type 3]

out of St Pancreas a lot too

On their way to Liverpool Street

 

[me123]

So, Sulzer, where is St. Pancreas? Anywhere near St. Duodenum by any chance?

 

[andylloyd]

Well I had the joy's of wheelslip(well extreme) on the 14.51 ex Waterloo to Chessington South.
As soon as the train left Motspur Park the wheelslip was a joke. Even the guard commented/joked about it.
Come on NR give us a RHTT on the Chessington Branch

 

[O L Leigh]

I love it when things get a bit naughty out there (though not too naughty). I take it as a challenge to my driving skills to get my train started and stopped correctly and safely, and still run as close to time as possible. For me, the sander button is there only as a cheat for when things get REALLY bad, because I relish the challenge of really driving the train out of a slippery station.

Going up through the power notches is a good way of getting moving when things are slippery. Of course you'll give it the beans to start off with on the off-chance that you may actually have enough grip for it, but once it starts to slip you need to consider your options. Normally notch 2 is fine to get things going up to about 30mph, then you take notch 3 while ocassionally trying notch 4 to test the grip levels. If things are really bad and it's spinning up in notch 2 you might want to drop a bit of sand, but I'd rather save it in case I get into a slide while braking rather than squandering it on the traction phase.

WSP can be helpful but I'd rather not leave matters in it's hands if I can. I've had the WSP limit a Cl317 to 65mph in notch 4 because the wheels kept spinning up even at that speed. It just wouldn't go any quicker. So I just knocked it back to notch 3 and the reduction in power at the rail was enough to stop the unit spinning up it's wheels and it romped up to the 80mph linespeed without a sniff of complaint.

Braking is a different matter. Driving longer trains with more braked wheelsets means that I do get it easier than some of my colleagues. I have had one or two trains struggle to stop, but they've always managed it. You just select your desired brake step and then just leave things well alone while you gauge how well you're slowing as the WSP does it's thing. I've not yet felt the need to go for emergency, but it's always there as an option of it looks like I'm going to miss the stop board.

O L Leigh