Wheelchairs and trains

[superkev]

With modern buses incorporating integral ramps often powered is rail with its cumbersome fold up models lagging behind.
It also begs the question as to arrangements at unmanned stations particularly with more doo on the horizon.
K

 

[Clip]

Whilst I wholeheartedly agree that more should be done for wheelchair users theres not really much room underneath the door sections of trains to put in a motor and a ramp that can extend far enough for the end users to use.

Buses are built in such a way to accommodate them and they lower to the ground/kerb too which is something a train at a station with a large gap or height difference isn't going to be able to do which is why the folded boards are the only option at present.

 

[edwin_m]

A motorised ramp would have to be operated by a member of staff. If anyone could just work it by pressing a button kids would mess around with it and it would be quite possible to cause a nasty injury. So even if motorised ramps were provided it would need train or platform staff to leave their posts and assist with the process, so it isn't that much time saving compared with a manual ramp.

Heathrow Express and some Overground stations have platforms at 1.1m above rail, rather than the usual 0.91m or less, and the central section of Crossrail will be the same. This gives level boarding so wheelchairs can just roll on and off. However it can't be done on mixed-traffic tracks because it would foul passing freight trains.

 

[Quakkerillo]

Buses however are much smaller vehicles, and it's quite easy for the driver to operate and oversee a deployment.
On trains, how would you expect an automatic ramp on a 12-car Southern train to work? If it were automatic ramps, there should be the need for a local button, as the driver/guard might not be there at the time, so the user would have to do it himself. But that could easily be abused too.
And apart from the height issue, I think some wheelchair users also like the aid they're getting. On buses, the driver can quickly aid them after the deployment, but in trains (especially DOO), you'd leave them alone, and if they accidentally tip over, you don't want that to happen.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Outside London you don't see motorised ramps on buses, the driver has to leave their cab and operate it manually. The only difference is that the ramp is fitted to the bus entrance stairwell rather than being completely separate.

 

[Llanigraham]

Outside London you don't see motorised ramps on buses, the driver has to leave their cab and operate it manually. The only difference is that the ramp is fitted to the bus entrance stairwell rather than being completely separate.

You obviously don't travel much outside London then!!
I've seen kneeling buses with ramps all over the UK.
We even have them in Aberystywyth!!

 

[Tetchytyke]

You obviously don't travel much outside London then!!
I've seen kneeling buses with ramps all over the UK.

They're not motorised though- the driver has to get out of his cab and pull the ramp out by hand with a little handle.

 

[misterredmist]

They're not motorised though- the driver has to get out of his cab and pull the ramp out by hand with a little handle.

I am pretty sure the Stagecoach buses in Manchester "kneel" without the driver leaving his seat.....

 

[work-traveller]

Outside London you don't see motorised ramps on buses, the driver has to leave their cab and operate it manually. The only difference is that the ramp is fitted to the bus entrance stairwell rather than being completely separate.

Lothian Buses operate double deckers with motorised linear extending ramps, which the driver operates from his/her seat. Seems to be fairly efficient when I've seen them operating.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I am pretty sure the Stagecoach buses in Manchester "kneel" without the driver leaving his seat.....

The ramp is not motorised, the driver has to get out of his seat and fold it out manually using a handle.

That's certainly the case up here and in West Yorkshire, anyway, and was the last time I took a bus in Manchester (Stagecoach E400, since you're asking). It wouldn't surprise me if Lothian Buses are slightly more technologically advanced.

 

[misterredmist]

The ramp is not motorised, the driver has to get out of his seat and fold it out manually using a handle.

That's certainly the case up here and in West Yorkshire, anyway, and was the last time I took a bus in Manchester (Stagecoach E400, since you're asking). It wouldn't surprise me if Lothian Buses are slightly more technologically advanced.

Sorry "AT" I think I got the wrong end of the stick, or ramp...... I meant that they kneel without the driver leaving his seat.......... I have not seen any ramp deployed

apologies

 

[AngusH]

I suspect that there will be a requirement in the future for wheelchair access without booked assistance.

I've certainly seen people complaining (probably correctly) that they don't want to have to book assistance and would prefer to be able to just turn up and travel.

I don't think it's possible to have a 100% coverage turn up and go service and also have manual ramps.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Sorry "AT" I think I got the wrong end of the stick, or ramp...... I meant that they kneel without the driver leaving his seat.......... I have not seen any ramp deployed

apologies

No need to apologise! Yeah, the buses kneel on their suspension with a button (some step entrance buses did that too) but the driver has to get out to deploy the ramp. I see Brighton and Hove are experimenting with allowing the wheelchair user's companion to do it too (if they're able/willing/there) so that'll be interesting.

I don't think it's possible to have a 100% coverage turn up and go service and also have manual ramps.

I disagree. The issue is staffing, both on the trains and on the station, and it doesn't really make huge amounts of difference whether the ramp is deployed manually or mechanically. There would still need to be someone present to make sure that the ramp had deployed safely and prevent misuse (I can imagine kids deploying it at every station if left to their own devices...)

Hopefully accessibility will finally kill off DOO.

 

[mbreckers]

The ramp is not motorised, the driver has to get out of his seat and fold it out manually using a handle.

That's certainly the case up here and in West Yorkshire, anyway, and was the last time I took a bus in Manchester (Stagecoach E400, since you're asking). It wouldn't surprise me if Lothian Buses are slightly more technologically advanced.

Can confirm that Lothian Buses have motorised ramps on their buses. It's really handy.

Certainly better than Worst Bus Glasgow who's ramps and kneeling are always conveniently broken

 

[Stompehh]

I see Brighton and Hove are experimenting with allowing the wheelchair user's companion to do it too (if they're able/willing/there) so that'll be interesting.

I saw this in Hamburg, at the middle door of a bendy no less. It was interlocked with the door so the door couldn't close, and a buzzer was going off in the drivers cab. The people there were so used to it that once the wheelchair user boarded another (unconnected) passenger closed it up for him. Very quick.

 

[Llanigraham]

They're not motorised though- the driver has to get out of his cab and pull the ramp out by hand with a little handle.

WRONG!!
I actually saw the one in Machynlleth this afternoon, and the driver does not move out of his seat.
Can I suggest that you are very misinformed?

 

[krus_aragon]

WRONG!!
I actually saw the one in Machynlleth this afternoon, and the driver does not move out of his seat.
Can I suggest that you are very misinformed?

Ooh, this sounds high tech, even by Machynlleth's progressive standards. Better than Arriva's fancy Sapphire double-deckers up north here.

On a general basis, in Machynlleth, London, and anywhere else, how does the bus driver ensure passengers don't try to board/alight while the automatic ramp unfolds?

 

[TEW]

I suspect that there will be a requirement in the future for wheelchair access without booked assistance.

I've certainly seen people complaining (probably correctly) that they don't want to have to book assistance and would prefer to be able to just turn up and travel.

I don't think it's possible to have a 100% coverage turn up and go service and also have manual ramps.

I have never seen an issue with passengers in wheelchairs travelling without pre booking where I work. All trains have guards onboard so provided the passenger's destination is accessible there will always be somebody to deploy a ramp.

 

[Bookd]

On London buses, if the ramp (which is on the centre exit door) is required the door must be closed first; a warning siren sounds while the ramp is activated, and the door reopened. The door is closed again before the ramp is withdrawn.

 

[theageofthetra]

I understand why a wheelchair user or anyone with severe mobility issues wants to be as independent as possible but it has always concerned me how they would be dealt with in a train evacuation. If you join a cruise there are strict rules on the number of wheelchair pax and in some ways in the event of an evacuation the environments outside a ship and a train are equally dangerous.

As a driver you are often totally unaware if you have any wheelchair pax on board and it would surely affect where and the type of evacuation to use if emergency services/control/signaller had this information.

Has anyone experience of an evacuation involving wheelchair pax out on the line?

 

[Trog]

Had a situation once where a wheel chair passenger got off a train onto an island platform while we had the barrow crossing lifted for re-railing. When he asked how he was supposed to get off the platform a couple of trackmen lifted his wheelchair off the platform carried it over two tracks and put him on the other platform. He seemed strangely ungrateful, but in retrospect I think he was expecting us to just help him over the gap in the barrow crossing, and was perhaps a little surprised by the more direct P-Way approach to solving his problem.

 

[Antman]

WRONG!!
I actually saw the one in Machynlleth this afternoon, and the driver does not move out of his seat.
Can I suggest that you are very misinformed?

I don't think we need WW3 over this.

If the ramp is not motorised then the driver would normally get out of the cab to operate it although in some cases another passenger might do the honours. The motorised ramps on London buses are not very reliable.

 

[Clip]

Had a situation once where a wheel chair passenger got off a train onto an island platform while we had the barrow crossing lifted for re-railing. When he asked how he was supposed to get off the platform a couple of trackmen lifted his wheelchair off the platform carried it over two tracks and put him on the other platform. He seemed strangely ungrateful, but in retrospect I think he was expecting us to just help him over the gap in the barrow crossing, and was perhaps a little surprised by the more direct P-Way approach to solving his problem.

That's brilliant. You have to love PWay at times the most direct route possible without any thought

 

[sng7]

Ooh, this sounds high tech, even by Machynlleth's progressive standards. Better than Arriva's fancy Sapphire double-deckers up north here.

On a general basis, in Machynlleth, London, and anywhere else, how does the bus driver ensure passengers don't try to board/alight while the automatic ramp unfolds?

On Lothian Buses there is a Warning siren/Tone to indicate that the ramp is moving that is all

 

[Mojo]

On a general basis, in Machynlleth, London, and anywhere else, how does the bus driver ensure passengers don't try to board/alight while the automatic ramp unfolds?

In London, the doors are closed until the ramp is fully deployed, or retracted.

 

[superkev]

Whilst I wholeheartedly agree that more should be done for wheelchair users theres not really much room underneath the door sections of trains to put in a motor and a ramp that can extend far enough for the end users to use.

Buses are built in such a way to accommodate them and they lower to the ground/kerb too which is something a train at a station with a large gap or height difference isn't going to be able to do which is why the folded boards are the only option at present.

Although prob difficult to retro fit I find it difficult to believe that buses with there low floors are easier than trains to fit integral ramps.
Didn't I read the e-144 has such a device.
K

 

[mbreckers]

I have never seen an issue with passengers in wheelchairs travelling without pre booking where I work. All trains have guards onboard so provided the passenger's destination is accessible there will always be somebody to deploy a ramp.

Youve never worked in Glasgow Central then. Most of the NR staff are ok if you havent pre-booked but there is one guy who bitches at me everytime (I'm a companion to a wheelchair user) for not booking assistance in advance, because every single time he is always "at the other end of the station"

Wheelchair passengers, like all other passengers, might not know four hours in advance what train they will be getting.