Wheelchair user trying to board during rush hour

[westv]

Wouldn't it just be easier if prams and wheelchairs were banned at busy times of day?

 

[fowler9]

Wouldn't it just be easier if prams and wheelchairs were banned at busy times of day?

Controversial but it might just work!

 

[londiscape]

Wouldn't it just be easier if prams and wheelchairs were banned at busy times of day?

Very controversial, and in fact could never happen. I'll interpret the gist as 'rush hour commuter trains should provide priority for commuters trying to get to work'.

I agree with this general point - personally I would never, ever choose to board a crush loaded rush hour train unless necessary to get to work - which is unfortunately most days. For this reason it does (perhaps unjustifiably) get me annoyed when leisure travellers with giant rucksacks and luggage travel during rush hour on city services and take up an inordinate amount of room.

But there is no reason why wheelchair users should not need to commute just the same as able bodied people - they will need to get to work at the same time and should have the same right of access to commuter services, ref DDA and morally speaking they will be working tax paying citizens no different from everyone else.

However I feel the same cannot be said for mothers with giant buggies - unless it's 'Take your Daughter to Work Day' they are not commuters and have less need to travel at that time of day and should not expect special dispensation to take up a large amount of train space which is already so constrained in city areas.

 

[fowler9]

Very controversial, and in fact could never happen. I'll interpret the gist as 'rush hour commuter trains should provide priority for commuters trying to get to work'.

I agree with this general point - personally I would never, ever choose to board a crush loaded rush hour train unless necessary to get to work - which is unfortunately most days. For this reason it does (perhaps unjustifiably) get me annoyed when leisure travellers with giant rucksacks and luggage travel during rush hour on city services and take up an inordinate amount of room.

But there is no reason why wheelchair users should not need to commute just the same as able bodied people - they will need to get to work at the same time and should have the same right of access to commuter services, ref DDA and morally speaking they will be working tax paying citizens no different from everyone else.

However I feel the same cannot be said for mothers with giant buggies - unless it's 'Take your Daughter to Work Day' they are not commuters and have less need to travel at that time of day and should not expect special dispensation to take up a large amount of train space which is already so constrained in city areas.

Blimey, so leasure travellers and mums? Anyone else you don't like. Personally speaking it is rush hour commuters who do my head in, they do the journey every day so they know it will be crowded, they should leave earlier.

 

[londiscape]

Blimey, so leasure travellers and mums? Anyone else you don't like. Personally speaking it is rush hour commuters who do my head in, they do the journey every day so they know it will be crowded, they should leave earlier.

I do, regularly, and leave later as well if my schedule for the day allows it. I don't like or dislike either, my point was that our rail capacity is so constrained at the moment that we are at breaking point, and unless capacity is increased - which is either a) impractical on cost grounds, b) impractical on infrastructure grounds (dating back to Victorian infrastructure) or c) not going to happen for many years yet (ie HS2)

I would love it if employers started to get a bit smarter and allow much more telecommuting, with modern technology there is no need to be in the office for at least 50% of day to day work (in my industry anyway). But that won't happen because employers are obsessed with control and measurement, and if they can't see you at your desk you're obviously sitting around skiving off.

Wasn't meant to be antagonistic mate, apologies if it came across that way (often difficult to convey tone on Internet forums!), just trying to say that while we still have this situation we should try and travel at a time appropriate to our needs, unfortunately the primary need always has to be getting to work, otherwise we don't get paid.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

I thought that Disability Discrimination/Equality meant preferential treatment had to be given to those "less equal than others", so people standing in the wheelchair area could be kicked off.

Or I've listened to Daily Mail readers too much.

" reasonable adjustments" and " reasonably practicable changes"

 

[island]

Blimey, so leasure travellers and mums? Anyone else you don't like. Personally speaking it is rush hour commuters who do my head in, they do the journey every day so they know it will be crowded, they should leave earlier.

On my usual commute I normally travel around 8:20am but often travel earlier or a little later, and unless I leave before 7:00am there is rarely a seat.

 

[edwin_m]

However I feel the same cannot be said for mothers with giant buggies - unless it's 'Take your Daughter to Work Day' they are not commuters and have less need to travel at that time of day and should not expect special dispensation to take up a large amount of train space which is already so constrained in city areas.

On the local buses (not so sure about trains) there seem to be quite a few parents taking their pre-school children to/from nursery at commuting times, as they are on the way to work. Another social change or unintended consequence?

 

[Antman]

Which "practical issues" are these?

These people who claim that folding a buggy is "too difficult" managed to do it perfectly easily as little as ten years ago, when most bus services were operated by step-entrance vehicles and most disabled people had to take taxis everywhere. The buggy I used, a Quinny Zapp, could be folded one handed. I also used a fixed pram that couldn't be folded but was always happy to get off if a wheelchair user wanted to get on; that was the risk I took using it.

DDA legislation- now incorporated in the Equality Act- was written with input from all stakeholders.

The real requirements of the Equality Act are straightforward- you should be able to get on a train, and use the lavatory (if one is provided), if you are a wheelchair user, subject to the "reasonable adjustments" restriction. It may be many things, but rocket science it is not.

Nobody would really suggest people in the wheelchair space should be thrown off a crush loaded train. But people who refuse to move out of the wheelchair space when there is room on the train, or people who barge past people in wheelchairs in the scramble to get on a train, or people who dump their bags in the wheelchair space, should be dealt with appropriately. And that includes people who couldn't possibly wake dear little Tarquin up from his nap.

Having both a young child and a wheelchair-bound relative, I see both sides of the argument. And it is clear that the wheelchair user should take priority over the able-bodied in terms of boarding a train. That doesn't mean chuck people on the train off, but I don't see many trains which are genuinely crush loaded as opposed to "people standing in a wheelchair area or vestibule because it's closer to the door".

The practical issues being discussed here.

Ten years ago nobody expected to be able to take a buggy onto a bus and so they made their travel arrangements accordingly. The DDA sounds fine in principal but putting it into practice is something else. Going back to the start of the thread I'd have been quite happy to get off a packed train at Clapham Junction and wait a few minutes for another one if it meant the wheelchair user could travel, I'm sure most other reasonable people would as well but obviously this is going to delay the train, and probably other trains behind it, and the whole experience is likely to make the wheelchair user feel quite uncomfortable.

On buses the whole issue is flawed, few wheelchair users actually travel by bus probably because of the practical issues involved, not least of all getting from home to the bus stop and from the bus stop at the other end to their final destination, but if they started using buses in large numbers that would cause further problems. Imagine a wheelchair user waiting for an hourly service only to be told by the driver "sorry but I can't take you as I've already got a wheelchair user on board, there's another bus in an hour which you might be able to get on if you're lucky". It is not possible to book the wheelchair space in advance, it's just first come, first served.

I'm afraid I don't have any magical solution to these problems:cry:

 

[Antman]

This is EXACTLY what the rules on London buses are now, and to save the driver getting involved there are now pre-recorded announcements for them to play, that if a wheelchair passenger gets on and the allocated space is taken up with babies in pushchairs (typically when all the seats are taken as well) then they must get off and wait for the next bus.

Oh, and mum then has to pay again of course.

So I don't see why one person, wheelchair user who can't walk much, is somehow of greater priority than another person, little Miss Taunton, who cannot walk at all.

Folding prams are one thing. Folding it up while taking the baby out in a full vehicle and then holding on while it lurches round corners is quite another. Incidentally, I understand most wheelchairs are folding as well. Why aren't their users told to fold them up and stand swinging round a pole .....?

I don't know where you got this information from but I'm afraid it is incorrect.

A driver can do no more than ask somebody to vacate the wheelchair space, they cannot be forced to do so. I'm sure you can imagine the possible consequences of a mother and young child being turfed off a bus in a remote location. If the buggy pusher does volunteer to get off and wait for another bus, but bear in mind there is no guarantee that they'll be able to get on the next bus, then they will be given a transfer ticket and will not have to pay again.

Nobody is a greater priority than anybody else, equality means just that and it's first come first served.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Nobody is a greater priority than anybody else, equality means just that and it's first come first served.

It'll be interesting to see what the High Court decide; one County Court has said the wheelchair user has priority over the wheelchair space and one County Court has said they don't.

Equality doesn't mean "first come first served", though, not when an able bodied person is preventing a disabled person from getting on a bus.

 

[Oswyntail]

....
However I feel the same cannot be said for mothers with giant buggies - unless it's 'Take your Daughter to Work Day' they are not commuters and have less need to travel at that time of day and should not expect special dispensation to take up a large amount of train space which is already so constrained in city areas.

Of course, they may be taking their child to take advantage of workplace creche facilities, or use a creche near their place of work so that they can be nearby in case of emergency. (I do think the new breed of buggy is somewhat OTT)

 

[Antman]

It'll be interesting to see what the High Court decide; one County Court has said the wheelchair user has priority over the wheelchair space and one County Court has said they don't.

Equality doesn't mean "first come first served", though, not when an able bodied person is preventing a disabled person from getting on a bus.

Well I'd seriously suggest that before making any such decision the judge(s) spend a day or two travelling by public transport and sees the practical issues for themselves.

Who is to decide who is an "able bodied person"? Many people have disabilities that are not immeadiatly obvious.

As far as I can see we either ban all unfolded buggies or we just accept the current situation. Once a person with a buggy has been allowed on board they are entitled to complete their journey.

 

[talltim]

What about wheelchair users with kids in buggies?

 

[Sheepy1209]

As a leisure traveller (thankfully able-bodied) I would love to be able to avoid busy trains; but it isn't always obvious to the occasional traveller which ones they will be - travel patterns where I live are influenced more by school traffic and visitors than any particular commuter flow.

I think it would be really useful to be able to see a predicted occupancy level alongside train times - even a traffic light system would be good enough. The Highways Agency do this for motorways - why not the same for the railways?

This is a genuine question and it's not just about commuting; there are plenty of other patterns relating to holidays, shopping, events etc.

Rather than blunt peak/off-peak pricing, this would allow a passenger to make an informed decision. That includes disabled people and parents - most don't want the stress.

(I'll try to predict some of the answers - "It's the TOC's responsibility"; "It's commercially sensitive" etc etc).

 

[island]

I think it would be really useful to be able to see a predicted occupancy level alongside train times - even a traffic light system would be good enough. The Highways Agency do this for motorways - why not the same for the railways?

London Midland has something like this for its evening peak services from Euston, on a poster on the way down to platforms 8-11.

 

[67018]

As a leisure traveller (thankfully able-bodied) I would love to be able to avoid busy trains; but it isn't always obvious to the occasional traveller which ones they will be - travel patterns where I live are influenced more by school traffic and visitors than any particular commuter flow.

Hear hear to this. 90+% of the time I get a seat when travelling to work in the peak, but on the last two occasions I've done the same journey with my family on a Saturday we have had to stand the whole way (nearly an hour). Not easy with a 2 year old; maybe next time we will have to take the massive buggy with us! More likely, we will probably drive next time

 

[Deerfold]

As a leisure traveller (thankfully able-bodied) I would love to be able to avoid busy trains; but it isn't always obvious to the occasional traveller which ones they will be - travel patterns where I live are influenced more by school traffic and visitors than any particular commuter flow.

I think it would be really useful to be able to see a predicted occupancy level alongside train times - even a traffic light system would be good enough. The Highways Agency do this for motorways - why not the same for the railways?

This is a genuine question and it's not just about commuting; there are plenty of other patterns relating to holidays, shopping, events etc.

Rather than blunt peak/off-peak pricing, this would allow a passenger to make an informed decision. That includes disabled people and parents - most don't want the stress.

(I'll try to predict some of the answers - "It's the TOC's responsibility"; "It's commercially sensitive" etc etc).

At Shipley Northern have a poster showing a couple of hours worth of morning trains with colour coded green-orange-red markings to show how full they normally are (partly due to the times and partly due to where they've come from).

Outside those times you'd usually be ok to assume a train wouldn't be rammed unless there was an event on.

I've not seen them do it anywhere else though.

 

[AndrewP]

This is such a complex issue as what is being discussed is not clear cut as:

• Every disabled person is different
• Not every disabled person, or the majority of them, are in wheelchairs
• The EA does not define what reasonably practicable steps are

What would be good is if the major transport groups could get together with various travellers groups (including a range of disabled passengers) to determine what reasonable looks like. However, the whole thing would be swamped by single interest pressure groups with no interest in compromise.

However, a lot is down to good manners pure and simple - from everyone.

Years ago I did a building accessibility project at college. We never went past the front door as wheelchair users simply couldn't get in, nor could most of the ambulant disabled and it was dangerous for the visually impaired - £500 made a huge difference!

 

[Tetchytyke]

Who is to decide who is an "able bodied person"? Many people have disabilities that are not immeadiatly obvious.

If they're standing in the sodding wheelchair area, they're able bodied.

Or they are compared to the bloke with no legs in the wheelchair, aren't they?

The guidance and legislation around reasonable adaptations refers to people who use mobility aids, it isn't whether someone is "able bodied". If you're a wheelchair user you are supposed to get priority access to the wheelchair area, even over other disabled people. The issue at court is how far a bus company should go to enforce this rule.

I'm prepared to bet that if bus companies remove the tip-up seats from wheelchair areas then most of these issues will disappear.

As far as I can see we either ban all unfolded buggies or we just accept the current situation. Once a person with a buggy has been allowed on board they are entitled to complete their journey.

It doesn't have to be either/or.

Buggies that cannot be folded cannot be conveyed. Buggies that can be folded should be folded at busy times or when a wheelchair user requires the space. This is what it says on the bus signage. This is what the current situation is supposed to be, this is what the law says is supposed to happen.

I'm prepared to bet money that a parent who doesn't pay their bus fare, or otherwise breaks the T&Cs of travel, will get turfed off, baby or no baby. So I fail to see why this should be any different.

If your buggy doesn't fold you shouldn't be on the bus. Therefore you fold the buggy or you get off. Simple, really. Enforcing these rules, rather than letting the "ooh, I can't wake up Jayden" brigade win, is what is needed. Bus companies will be tough on fare evaders, perhaps they need to be tough on these people too. "This woman was removed from the bus because she was selfish and wanted to leave a disabled kid in a wheelchair in the pouring rain"; that would deal with the local media angle too.

 

[fowler9]

I do, regularly, and leave later as well if my schedule for the day allows it. I don't like or dislike either, my point was that our rail capacity is so constrained at the moment that we are at breaking point, and unless capacity is increased - which is either a) impractical on cost grounds, b) impractical on infrastructure grounds (dating back to Victorian infrastructure) or c) not going to happen for many years yet (ie HS2)

I would love it if employers started to get a bit smarter and allow much more telecommuting, with modern technology there is no need to be in the office for at least 50% of day to day work (in my industry anyway). But that won't happen because employers are obsessed with control and measurement, and if they can't see you at your desk you're obviously sitting around skiving off.

Wasn't meant to be antagonistic mate, apologies if it came across that way (often difficult to convey tone on Internet forums!), just trying to say that while we still have this situation we should try and travel at a time appropriate to our needs, unfortunately the primary need always has to be getting to work, otherwise we don't get paid.

No worries mate, I didn't either. I must make more use of smilies in future. Ha ha. I agree with you re working from home, most of the jobs I have had could be done from home but like you say its a bit of a control thing from the management. Luckily for me the train and bus routes I use aren't quite as frantic as some in other parts of the country, and indeed other parts of Liverpool so my commutes don't tend to be too painful.

 

[Yew]

Perhaps, although I would remind you of NRCoC 47 and 49 and the restrictions on the amount of luggage you can take on board.

Many of the Uni students I see on the trains are taking far more luggage with them, and with far bigger sizing, than NRCoC allows them to.

That being said, if 70 people took the amount allowed by the NRCOC on the dogbox between Lincoln and Newark, I don't think that amount of luggage would be getting on the poor 153 even if you took the seats out and left the people on the platform!

 

[Antman]

If they're standing in the sodding wheelchair area, they're able bodied.

Or they are compared to the bloke with no legs in the wheelchair, aren't they?

The guidance and legislation around reasonable adaptations refers to people who use mobility aids, it isn't whether someone is "able bodied". If you're a wheelchair user you are supposed to get priority access to the wheelchair area, even over other disabled people. The issue at court is how far a bus company should go to enforce this rule.

I'm prepared to bet that if bus companies remove the tip-up seats from wheelchair areas then most of these issues will disappear.



It doesn't have to be either/or.

Buggies that cannot be folded cannot be conveyed. Buggies that can be folded should be folded at busy times or when a wheelchair user requires the space. This is what it says on the bus signage. This is what the current situation is supposed to be, this is what the law says is supposed to happen.

I'm prepared to bet money that a parent who doesn't pay their bus fare, or otherwise breaks the T&Cs of travel, will get turfed off, baby or no baby. So I fail to see why this should be any different.

If your buggy doesn't fold you shouldn't be on the bus. Therefore you fold the buggy or you get off. Simple, really. Enforcing these rules, rather than letting the "ooh, I can't wake up Jayden" brigade win, is what is needed. Bus companies will be tough on fare evaders, perhaps they need to be tough on these people too. "This woman was removed from the bus because she was selfish and wanted to leave a disabled kid in a wheelchair in the pouring rain"; that would deal with the local media angle too.

So you would assume that anybody standing in the "sodding wheelchair area" is able bodied? It obviously hasn't occured to you that any one of them could be a disabled person standing because there was no choice.

Removing tip up seats will force more disabled people to have to stand:roll:

Who mentioned fare evaders?

Who should bus companies be tough on? Parents with young kids? Oh yes that'll be a great advert for the bus industry won't it?

As I said before, once somebody is allowed on with an unfolded buggy they are entitled to remain on board for the duration of their journey and I'm afraid your rants about "waking up Jayden" are making little sense

 

[reb0118]

There were plenty of spare seats and a luggage area which would have taken a pushchair.

Careful laddie! Any more common sense suggestions like that and you'll have the full force of mumsnet on your case! I was threatened with mumsnet by a rather irate middle class mother (she must have been middle class as she put the g on the end of the "F" word - ripped me a new *****hole she did! ). My crime? ~ daring to suggest that she move her pram out the doorway and into the nearby, & empty cycle/disabled utility area.

 

[Parallel]

Luggage from uni students is a big problem at certain times of the year with no obvious way around it (as mentioned above). I went to uni at Aberystwyth which gets a two carriage train every two hours, and there was luggage everywhere. This year I was visiting my friend at Aberystwyth and I was coming from Harlech and so changed at Machynlleth and there was just lines of suitcases everywhere. . Quite often I've seen people get left on the platform at the end of term as there were too many people and not enough capacity!

 

[455driver]

Careful laddie! Any more common sense suggestions like that and you'll have the full force of mumsnet on your case!

That lot really thinks the world owes them simply because they have dropped a sprog or 2.

I sometimes go on that site just to read what they are moaning about, and to be honest they put the moaners on here to shame with the miniscule things they complain about!

 

[johnnychips]

I sometimes go on that site just to read what they are moaning about, and to be honest they put the moaners on here to shame with the minuscule things they complain about!

Hmmm...you got any secret yearnings 455...I can envisage you now with a pretend pregnancy suit, proudly stroking your stomach.

There are many sites on the net I visit that I would not want my fellow forum members to know about, but admitting to viewing Mumsnet takes some balls...erm...

 

[455driver]

Hmmm...you got any secret yearnings 455...I can envisage you now with a pretend pregnancy suit, proudly stroking your stomach.

There are many sites on the net I visit that I would not want my fellow forum members to know about, but admitting to viewing Mumsnet takes some balls...erm...

It is hilarious on there, they really are up themselves.

No I havent signed up!

Some of them are so anti-bloke it makes me wonder how they got pregnant in the first place!

 

[GatwickDepress]

It is hilarious on there, they really are up themselves.

No I havent signed up!

Some of them are so anti-bloke it makes me wonder how they got pregnant in the first place!

This is perhaps my all time favourite topic from our favourite matriarchal madhouse.

 

[duncanp]

This is perhaps my all time favourite topic from our favourite matriarchal madhouse.

Just had a look at the topic on Mumsnet - some people really do need to get a life.

Back to this thread, they were one of the people who had a moan at Lothian Buses in Edinburgh when they tried to ban oversized buggies.