noddingdonkey
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Not quite so clear cut - a different court found in favour of Arriva in a similar case
http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/ne...uling_over_wheelchair_access_to_Arriva_buses/
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Wheelchair user trying to board during rush hour
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Not quite so clear cut - a different court found in favour of Arriva in a similar case
http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/ne...uling_over_wheelchair_access_to_Arriva_buses/
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R
RailUK Forums
It's one of these issues where practicality and principle come crashing together, on crush loaded services some of the larger 'scooter' type wheelchairs take up enough space for 6 people. While in an ideal world wheelchair users would be able to get on any train, the same applies to all passengers. Given the limitations during rush hour if it's a regular journey people who require wheelchairs might have an easier and more comfortable journey if they get a motability car and a blue parking badge.
Even for less obvious cases, I'm more likely to offer a seat to someone who is elderly etc on an unexpectedly busy midday service than I am during rush hour when passengers know what to expect.
Even for less obvious cases, I'm more likely to offer a seat to someone who is elderly etc on an unexpectedly busy midday service than I am during rush hour when passengers know what to expect.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
I believe the disability legislation still contains a reasonableness test, so that businesses have to make reasonable adjustments. I guess in the case of the Leeds passenger mentioned upthread it would be arguable (but probably hasn't been tested in court) that the wheelchair passenger shoud turn up slightly earlier to allow time for loading before the train leaves on time.
At Clapham Junction wouldn't the staff deploying the wheelchair ramp have some role in judging whether they should be allowed to board? It's probably not a question of finding an empty doorway somewhere along the train, as this would take too long and the assistance staff at destination would then have to be alerted to go to a different doorway from normal.
The increase in use of mobility scooters and pressure to allow carriage of these on train could make this sort of problem much more common.
At Clapham Junction wouldn't the staff deploying the wheelchair ramp have some role in judging whether they should be allowed to board? It's probably not a question of finding an empty doorway somewhere along the train, as this would take too long and the assistance staff at destination would then have to be alerted to go to a different doorway from normal.
The increase in use of mobility scooters and pressure to allow carriage of these on train could make this sort of problem much more common.
To be honest even if it was rush hour I would offer my seat to someone elderly, I worked with a chap in his seventies who had reduced mobility and he had to be on a crowded rush hour bus to get to work. He did in fact have to work for reasons I won't go in to, not for extra pocket money.
Solent&Wessex
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The problem with most of these scenarios is that the bus or train operator is relying on somebody else co-operating. I feel sorry for First or anyone else for that matter, and especially bus drivers working on their own in the middle of nowhere. If somebody is blocking the wheelchair bay with a pram and they refuse to move , what exactly is that bus driver meant to do?
Absolutely mate. Very sad so few people are willing to take part in society.
Not necessarily.
1 That person may not get the disabled living allowance (dla) higher rate mobility allowance needed for Motability eligibility, or
2 That person may already have a motability car but finds motoring to work not possible (may not be able to drive themselves), or
3 A blue badge does not give that person carte blanche to park all day, or
4 That person might already be using the higher rate mobility allowance for their specialised wheelchair, or
5 That person might get a Motability car, but as you give the whole higher rate mobility allowance to Motability, plus an upfront advance payment, every three years, then they may not have enough money to pay for fuel/parking.
Tisn't quite as simple as it may seem.
Steve
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The best solution here, by a long way, would be for the assistance staff to simply make a judgement on the realistic prospect of the wheelchair user being reasonably accomodated on a train, and if it looks unlikely just call a taxi. The cost is pretty trivial and certainly far less than a court case and the accompanying negative publicity. It's also a darn sight easier than expecting hard pressed commuters to play musical passengers and block a platform for 10 minutes in the morning rush hour.
Surely there are some bardic courtesies in thais kind of situation. In all cases I can think of, passengers have let the wheelchair user board first either as a matter of courtesy without the wheelchair user asking, or a practicality because the need to place a ramp created that situation.
Similarly inside the train I have never seen anyone fail to move for a wheelchair user.
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Similarly inside the train I have never seen anyone fail to move for a wheelchair user.
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I'm intrigued at your implication that, even if the passenger had arrived early, a Northern Rail train in Leeds would have arrived and be staffed earlier than the departure time.It's tricky!
The train from Leeds to Ilkley just after 5pm used to leave consistently a few minutes late every day. This was all down to one stroppy wheelchair user from Ilkley who insisted that, as able-bodied commuters could turn up and expect to get on the train just as the guard was closing the doors, so could he. He refused to arrive earlier, and this became accepted practice, despite the effects it had on the timetable and other passengers. On the other hand, training in sports provision I have received states categorically that, if catering for wheelchair users is impossible for the club after reasonable investigation, then it does not need to be done. As ever, there is a balance to be struck.
In your instance, I would have hoped that those who were waiting alongside the lady at Clapham would have noticed her predicament and helped, or at least brought her assistance. Having said that, if there was literally not enough room on the trains, no one should be expected to get off to make way for her. Sometimes life is just a bitch.
Having been involved in a disussion forum with the management of Stagecoach in Hull, East Yorkshire Motor Services, HCT Group and Hull City Council a few weeks ago - this is *absolutely NOT* how the bus companies are interpreting the recent rulings. People, push chairs, luggage will be asked to move out of the wheelchair space if there's room and they must do so or the bus will not continue its journey - but nobody will be thrown off. If the bus is full, the bus is full and passengers will be denied boarding disabled or able bodied.
Which is quite fair: If I was on a bus and was chucked off for a wheelchair user and was then late for work, missed a train or a booked appointment in consequence I would be seeking compensation and damages for discrimination.
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
If the bus or train is crush loaded then no, people shouldn't be "thrown off". Though you mention buggies and luggage and such like. If you're in the wheelchair space with a buggy that you cannot or will not fold then you should get off. I used to use a pram that did not fold and it was a risk I took; I was always happy to get off if needed, though it was only ever required once.
But in reality how often is it the case that a train is crush loaded and nobody gets off? It happens at outer-suburban stations (e.g. Hornsey), but Clapham Junction sees a lot of people get off trains. Whilst it may be crush loaded when it arrives, and may be crush loaded when it leaves, it will be different passengers on board. A wheelchair user should have priority boarding against able-bodied passengers. That much is blatantly obvious. People in the wheelchair space should move; that is equally obvious.
I don't see many buses that are filled to the plated capacity, and you'll note that the plated capacity usually only substitutes two standees for a wheelchair user. What's more common is that people are sitting in the tip up seats in the wheelchair area, rather than standing, and grumble at having to move. Tough luck. It's why I prefer London buses for not using tip up seats in wheelchair areas, people are much less likely to be in it.
That'll be why Network Rail make it clear that if you leave your property somewhere you shouldn't, that it'll be "removed and may be destroyed by the security services".
The example I have in mind is my last trip on EMT. Some idiot had dumped a load of bags in the wheelchair area in first class. Rather than move the bags off the train at Leicester when a wheelchair user got on, they left the wheelchair user in the vestibule. That was wrong. The excellent first class host sorted it, eventually, but those bags should have been moved off the train at Leicester, with a message at London saying the owner can collect them at their expense and convenience. Without the first class host the wheelchair user wouldn't have been able to get to the space they'd reserved.
"Bags left here will be removed" would cover it, just like my employer removes bikes that are chained to the railings out the front.
I see it all the time on EastCoast, with the idiots travelling with a suitcase the size of a small car dumping it in the wheelchair area. Sorry, but those bags should be removed from the train.
But in reality how often is it the case that a train is crush loaded and nobody gets off? It happens at outer-suburban stations (e.g. Hornsey), but Clapham Junction sees a lot of people get off trains. Whilst it may be crush loaded when it arrives, and may be crush loaded when it leaves, it will be different passengers on board. A wheelchair user should have priority boarding against able-bodied passengers. That much is blatantly obvious. People in the wheelchair space should move; that is equally obvious.
I don't see many buses that are filled to the plated capacity, and you'll note that the plated capacity usually only substitutes two standees for a wheelchair user. What's more common is that people are sitting in the tip up seats in the wheelchair area, rather than standing, and grumble at having to move. Tough luck. It's why I prefer London buses for not using tip up seats in wheelchair areas, people are much less likely to be in it.
Trog said:
That'll be why Network Rail make it clear that if you leave your property somewhere you shouldn't, that it'll be "removed and may be destroyed by the security services".
The example I have in mind is my last trip on EMT. Some idiot had dumped a load of bags in the wheelchair area in first class. Rather than move the bags off the train at Leicester when a wheelchair user got on, they left the wheelchair user in the vestibule. That was wrong. The excellent first class host sorted it, eventually, but those bags should have been moved off the train at Leicester, with a message at London saying the owner can collect them at their expense and convenience. Without the first class host the wheelchair user wouldn't have been able to get to the space they'd reserved.
"Bags left here will be removed" would cover it, just like my employer removes bikes that are chained to the railings out the front.
I see it all the time on EastCoast, with the idiots travelling with a suitcase the size of a small car dumping it in the wheelchair area. Sorry, but those bags should be removed from the train.
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Are you serious?
Aside from anything else equality means just that, wheelchairs cannot be parked in the 'guards van' they are entitled to the same conditions (nothing better or worse) than the rest of us.
I know a wheelchair user who would never dream of trying to use public transport at the height of rush hour for the very reasons outlined in this thread. At the other extreme we have awkward people like the aforementioned wheelchair user at Leeds who delays the 5pm departure by boarding at the last minute because he is entitled to do so.
Err, hang on a minute. What is somebody supposed to do if they have a buggy full of shopping and a sleeping child? They obviously cannot fold it up, are you suggesting they should be chucked off the bus or train?
Instead of putting the onus on other passengers or members of staff I would like those responsible for this ill thought out legislation to come and sort these problems out. The fact that so few wheelchair users attempt to use public transport surely shows just how flawed it is? Of course more wheelchair space means less seating and more disabled people having to stand, sadly some people think all disabled people are in wheelchairs, around 99% are not.
Obvious to you and me, yes. But what if it's not obvious to the person in the space - especially on a bus. How do you get them to move if they don't want to?
Really? On the buses I use it's usually full of standees - I use it myself in preference when I have a suitcase with me (though happy to move for a wheelchair or buggy).
Had a fun one a couple of months ago on an hourly single decker service on which I rarely see either buggies or wheelchairs - there was a wheelchair and two buggies. The mothers refused to fold their buggies but eventually managed to all squeeze onto the bus - but in such a way that one of the buggies was in the way of everyone getting on and off the bus.
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
The London Buses trick- engine off, paper out- usually focuses minds!
I don't see how a wheelchair space should not be used for bags or standing space in the absence of a wheelchair? I'm sure most people would be understanding and move bags from the space should a wheelchair user board, when I come home from uni there's no doubt that luggage racks aren't large enough to take all the suitcases from fellow passengers and so it makes perfect sense to me that the empty floorspace should be used, rather than leaving cases in the aisles or on seats.
AFAIK wheelchair users have to pre-book to get ramp assistance? Surely if it's an issue have a tensa barrier and a sign to go across the wheelchair space as a 'seat reservation'.
AFAIK wheelchair users have to pre-book to get ramp assistance? Surely if it's an issue have a tensa barrier and a sign to go across the wheelchair space as a 'seat reservation'.
Trog
Established Member
There would be a legal difference between someone leaving something and going away, and just putting it in the nearest place to them while they travel. Your example would be better if station staff were creeping up behind people sat on seats at the station and removing their baggage from beside them. Or taking away peoples bikes while they were distracted by removing their bicycle clips.
Asking (it never hurts to be polite) then telling the owners to move any luggage when the disabled space is needed is a better option. As putting large bags down in the vestibules and aisles for people to climb over, would be a bit silly while the out of the way corner used for wheelchairs sat empty, as it usually is.
I travel over 30,000 miles a year by rail, using four trains a day, and if I counted up the number of times I have seen a wheelchair space filled by a wheelchair I would probably still have some spare fingers. Not allowing other use of that space between wheelchair users, is simply a waste of an expensive resource.
Monty
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I'd also like to argue that some of the tactics that Artic Troll is advocating is a sure way to get staff assaulted. Forcing already agitated commuters to alight from a train or for any reason is likely to cause chaos. It's unworkable and unrealistic, it's one thing to say what should be done. It's a other thing entirely when you are the poor guard or platform staff who actually have to do it.
Not official policy though.
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
Giving a disabled person priority boarding will see station staff get assaulted? But of course.
If the train is genuinely crush loaded then a disabled person will have to wait just like the able bodied will. But how often is that genuinely the case, and how often is it that a crowd of people barge past the wheelchair user and THEN claim the train is too full?
My view remains that wheelchair users should get priority boarding, and that people already on the train should be made to move. At somewhere like Clapham Junction this shouldn't be too hard to manage, given the turnover of passengers.
Perhaps, although I would remind you of NRCoC 47 and 49 and the restrictions on the amount of luggage you can take on board.
Many of the Uni students I see on the trains are taking far more luggage with them, and with far bigger sizing, than NRCoC allows them to.
If the train is genuinely crush loaded then a disabled person will have to wait just like the able bodied will. But how often is that genuinely the case, and how often is it that a crowd of people barge past the wheelchair user and THEN claim the train is too full?
My view remains that wheelchair users should get priority boarding, and that people already on the train should be made to move. At somewhere like Clapham Junction this shouldn't be too hard to manage, given the turnover of passengers.
ECML180 said:
Perhaps, although I would remind you of NRCoC 47 and 49 and the restrictions on the amount of luggage you can take on board.
Many of the Uni students I see on the trains are taking far more luggage with them, and with far bigger sizing, than NRCoC allows them to.
If I wasnt able to get on an hour service bus I would push and shove as much as I can. Its bad waiting at a train station for an hour but at an exposed bus stop even worse.
Although many do carry more than officially permitted, the problem is just the same if many people bring luggage within the requirements. Catch a monday morning or friday evening service with people going home for the weekend(students, workers, etc) then a lot of people do carry luggage and fill out more than just the luggage racks!
Which was the point I was trying to make yesterday, in a slightly ham-fisted manner.
Discrimination and equality works both ways; kicking one person off to make room for another person is not fair or equal.
I would like to see what would happen on a bus where a person on crutches who cannot stand while the bus throws everyone everywhere as it drives along sits in the wheelchair bay flipup seat as it is the only one left, and a wheelchair user gets on requiring that space.
There is just about enough room to swing a very young kitten.
Would you kick the guy on crutches off the bus, as the new passenger is more disabled than them?
Kick one passenger off to let the other person sit in a normal seat?
Tell the wheelchair user "I'm full, there's another bus just behind me with room"
If there are 20 able bodied people and one wheelchair user waiting at the stop, and the bus has room for zero additional passengers, should the driver say "I can't take any of you" or "Due to equality, I can only take that one person. None of the rest of you can come on. Oh, and I have to kick some people off to do that." How equal does that sound?
Funnily enough, that sounds very anti-equality, whereas what I am trying to convey is a desire for full equality with neither positive nor negative discrimination.
Focuses whose mind on what exactly?
Any driver acting in this way is likely to end up on a disciplinary
Exactly.............staff cannot foce people off buses or trains and they shouldn't be put in that position.
If the wheelchair bay is full of people who cannot or will not move the wheelchair cannot travel, the moral argument can be argued forever more but it's not going to change anything.
What happens if the choice is between a wheelchair user and others who are registered disabled. Most disabled people are not in wheelchairs - often its not even obvious when people are disabled. Or what if its someone disabled with a pushchair - things are never simple.
I am sure that First will appeal the case that went against them in view of the precedent in the Arriva case but what is needed is clarity in what the position is and then making sure that people know it with signage and other media.
One thing is certain if this becomes a fight between the disabled lobby and the mums lobby I don't want to be in the same time zone.
I am sure that First will appeal the case that went against them in view of the precedent in the Arriva case but what is needed is clarity in what the position is and then making sure that people know it with signage and other media.
One thing is certain if this becomes a fight between the disabled lobby and the mums lobby I don't want to be in the same time zone.
northwichcat
Veteran Member
It looks like there's a difference in what happened.
In Leeds a mother refused to move her baby's buggy from that space because she didn't want to wake the sleeping baby. Presumably there was space for the baby on the bus elsewhere?
In Darlington it sounds like other passengers took up that space because the bus is full.
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That doesn't explain no-one being willing to fold a pushchair up to make room. The bus was from a comparatively comfortable, enclosed bus station though I can understand not wanting to have to wait an hour.
There were plenty of spare seats and a luggage area which would have taken a pushchair.
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