Wheelchair user trying to board during rush hour

[GodAtum]

As many of you know the 455 trains from Clapham Junction - Waterloo are extremely busy during morning rush hour, to the extent there is only somespace by the door. This morning a wheelchair user was truing to board but there was no physical space. The was trying for at least 30 mins until she left the platform.

Does this happen on other lines?

 

[Antman]

Happens a lot on both trains and buses around London, feel sorry for the person in the wheelchair but what is the solution? It's all very well people demanding equal rights for wheelchair users etc etc but this is often the reality.

 

[Oswyntail]

It's tricky!
The train from Leeds to Ilkley just after 5pm used to leave consistently a few minutes late every day. This was all down to one stroppy wheelchair user from Ilkley who insisted that, as able-bodied commuters could turn up and expect to get on the train just as the guard was closing the doors, so could he. He refused to arrive earlier, and this became accepted practice, despite the effects it had on the timetable and other passengers. On the other hand, training in sports provision I have received states categorically that, if catering for wheelchair users is impossible for the club after reasonable investigation, then it does not need to be done. As ever, there is a balance to be struck.
In your instance, I would have hoped that those who were waiting alongside the lady at Clapham would have noticed her predicament and helped, or at least brought her assistance. Having said that, if there was literally not enough room on the trains, no one should be expected to get off to make way for her. Sometimes life is just a bitch.

 

[Lockwood]

Having said that, if there was literally not enough room on the trains, no one should be expected to get off to make way for her. Sometimes life is just a bitch.

I thought that Disability Discrimination/Equality meant preferential treatment had to be given to those "less equal than others", so people standing in the wheelchair area could be kicked off.

Or I've listened to Daily Mail readers too much.

 

[jopsuk]

Were able bodied people left behind by trains too? Presumably this was with the assistance of staff?

 

[Sacro]

... Equality meant preferential treatment had to be given ...

:roll:

 

[northwichcat]

I thought that Disability Discrimination/Equality meant preferential treatment had to be given to those "less equal than others", so people standing in the wheelchair area could be kicked off.

Or I've listened to Daily Mail readers too much.

I don't think the rail staff can throw passengers off a train to do that if the train is literally full but they can ask for them to voluntarily alight and to go on the next service if they deem that to be appropriate, which might be the case if the calling pattern of the next service is different and the next service doesn't call at the station the wheelchair user requires.

Equality means you give consideration to the disabled person's disability and makes allowances for it. For instance, someone who has a speech impediment at a job interview should be given more time to construct their answers to allow for the impediment, which may mean they have a long interview slot than other applicants but they don't really get any more time to talk when you take their disability in to consideration.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The wheelchair space on public transport is for the priority use of wheelchair bound customers and, yes, people standing in it should be forced to move if a wheelchair user requires it. This has been confirmed at court in a similar case involving First and pushchair users that do not vacate the wheelchair area on buses.

Quite why this is controversial, I do not know. If you're standing in the wheelchair space you move. This is a choice you take when you occupy the wheelchair space- usually on a tip-up or perch seat rather than standing- so if you get moved that's your own look out. A wheelchair only takes up the space of 3-4 standing passengers anyway, even if people might have to step on to the platform to allow the wheelchair user to board.

 

[GodAtum]

Were able bodied people left behind by trains too? Presumably this was with the assistance of staff?

Yes it is very common around that time for only half of the people waiting on the platform to get on.

 

[Surreyman]

The wheelchair space on public transport is for the priority use of wheelchair bound customers and, yes, people standing in it should be forced to move if a wheelchair user requires it. This has been confirmed at court in a similar case involving First and pushchair users that do not vacate the wheelchair area on buses.

Quite why this is controversial, I do not know. If you're standing in the wheelchair space you move. This is a choice you take when you occupy the wheelchair space- usually on a tip-up or perch seat rather than standing- so if you get moved that's your own look out. A wheelchair only takes up the space of 3-4 standing passengers anyway, even if people might have to step on to the platform to allow the wheelchair user to board.

Arctic Troll, I am in full agreement with you, problem is, what happens on a 'crush-loaded' rush hour train if the standing passengers refuse to move/give up the space?
Do the platform/train staff say: -
1. 'The trains are too full, you (wheelchair user) will have to wait for a less busy train' (thus precipitating legal action against TOC for denying access to W/Chair user.
or
2. 'You (standing passengers) are causing us (TOC) to break the law by denying access to a wheelchair user, if you do not move, the train is not moving and we are calling the BTP? (With all the impact on timetable, following trains etc).

As already mentioned the same issues apply to buses (if currently wheelchair accessible).
I personally believe that sooner or later scenario 2 will occur when W/chair user, accompanied by TV crew/MP/Disability watchdogs makes a stand.

 

[northwichcat]

The wheelchair space on public transport is for the priority use of wheelchair bound customers and, yes, people standing in it should be forced to move if a wheelchair user requires it. This has been confirmed at court in a similar case involving First and pushchair users that do not vacate the wheelchair area on buses.

What about passengers not standing in the designated wheelchair space but standing between it and the doors? If they don't move the wheelchair can't get on even if the wheelchair area is vacated.

 

[Tetchytyke]

They can step on to the platform whilst the wheelchair user boards, and then get back on the train. This happens on the tube every morning when people have to get off trains to allow others to get off.

Actually I think we should be holding trains and buses when people won't move out of the wheelchair space. It may cause problems for a couple of goes, but people will soon get the idea (or their fellow commuters will get the idea for them).

As for people who dump their bags in the wheelchair space, I fully believe we should throw their bags off the train at the station, possibly even without telling them.

 

[YorkshireBear]

They can step on to the platform whilst the wheelchair user boards, and then get back on the train. This happens on the tube every morning when people have to get off trains to allow others to get off.

Actually I think we should be holding trains and buses when people won't move out of the wheelchair space. It may cause problems for a couple of goes, but people will soon get the idea (or their fellow commuters will get the idea for them).

As for people who dump their bags in the wheelchair space, I fully believe we should throw their bags off the train at the station, possibly even without telling them.

Hear Hear!

 

[Oswyntail]

The wheelchair space on public transport is for the priority use of wheelchair bound customers and, yes, people standing in it should be forced to move if a wheelchair user requires it. ....

Yes, but should there be any preferential treatment if there is no wheelchair space? (Is there one on a 455?) Or if the wheelchair user is actually at the wrong end of the train?
Wouldn't it be nice, though, if everyone behaved like civilised human beings, and helped each other.

 

[Tetchytyke]

IIRC the 455s have a wheelchair space, which is clearly marked both inside and outside the carriage.

 

[jon0844]

IIRC the 455s have a wheelchair space, which is clearly marked both inside and outside the carriage.

I wouldn't want to be in the space marked outside the carriage.

(Sorry!)

 

[tsr]

jonmorris0844 - I think perhaps what is meant is that it would be simpler if wheelchairs were all standard gauge, fitted with heating and enormous umbrellas, and able to use a corridor connection... and yes, I am only joking.

In the mean time, I would expect a reasonable balance to be struck. Having the wheelchair user board immediately after others have alighted from the train is usually the best solution (and already in place). If there is no room for "able-bodied" people to board at this specific time - due to crush loading - I don't see why a wheelchair user should be given priority to board, as that is going to remove people from the train who have also paid to use the service. However, if there is a reasonable way to make sure at least one space is clear by getting people to move down (and even with 455s at Clapham Jn, you can fairly often negotiate a small amount of room inside, even if the train is very full), I see no reason why a wheelchair should not be put there.

It would be nonsensical to prevent people from standing in a wheelchair space just because one might turn up later in the journey, and with that must come a certain level of understanding that sometimes those spaces will not be fully available later.

In the case at Clapham Junction this morning, I do wonder if some of those people standing on at least one of those trains couldn't have moved around inside, as soon as anyone alighting had been able to do so. I know just how ridiculously crowded those trains get, but you can usually find at least one doorway with room for 3 or 4 people, so that may well have been able to be used. However, that said, predicting where space will be on a packed 455 is sometimes impossible to do. Newer stock may soon be fitted with sensors to deal with this, but it's not going to help on many inner-suburban routes in the SWT area any time soon.

 

[LowLevel]

If the train is full, you can't chuck people off in favour of other people, whether they are wheelchair users or not. You can remove belongings, cycles etc, but not people. Asking them to move inside the train to vacate the area is one thing but asking them to leave is quite another. No ticket holding passenger has more of a right to be on the train than another, particularly if able bodied persons are also unable to board effectively.

In this scenario I would organise the wheelchair user a taxi.

 

[northwichcat]

They can step on to the platform whilst the wheelchair user boards, and then get back on the train. This happens on the tube every morning when people have to get off trains to allow others to get off.

And then the people who were standing the wheelchair space claim that they were on board first and moved in to the wheelchair space to allow the people not standing in the wheelchair space on?

 

[Tetchytyke]

If the train is full, you can't chuck people off in favour of other people, whether they are wheelchair users or not.

The High Court says that is exactly what a bus operator must do. I see the same thing applying to trains.

In this scenario I would organise the wheelchair user a taxi.

That would be a reasonable compromise and would probably meet the Equality Act.

I wouldn't want to be in the space marked outside the carriage.

Pfft, I'd be quite happy to be in a standard gauge wheelchair, with a dellner coupler on the front. No having to associate with smelly commuters.

 

[LowLevel]

The High Court says people must be required to remove their belongings from the wheelchair space and use alternative accommodation - but only for First Group buses at the moment. It doesn't say anything about removing them from the service altogether to facilitate travel when there's no room for anyone to do so, which I believe would be a different legal test. The case in question implied that there was space elsewhere for the buggy to be folded and placed and the mother refused to do so - not that the mother was required to leave the bus entirely to accommodate the wheelchair user. Basically that it is acceptable to refuse carriage of additional articles or insist that they are placed in a different location, but I don't believe anything has been said about actually forcing other people off a bus or train (potentially in the middle of nowhere?) in order to allow someone else to board. It doesn't work.

 

[tony_mac]

The High Court says people must be required to remove their belongings from the wheelchair space and use alternative accommodation

Has the High Court decided?
The case I can see was in Leeds County Court; yet only a few months ago Middlesbrough County Court seemed to decide the opposite, with largely similar facts.
(I haven't looked in any great detail, so apologies if this is wrong, feel free to check the details...)
http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/10396441.Darlington_disability_campaigner_slams_court_ruling_over_wheelchair_access_to_Arriva_buses/
http://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/news/latest-news/top-stories/wheelchair-user-in-legal-win-over-bus-firm-s-policy-1-6081788

 

[Tetchytyke]

No, the High Court haven't, misread the Leeds case.

They will do soon though, as I believe First are appealing.

 

[Goatboy]

Unacceptable, all trains should be forced to carry a spare coach at the back to stop this ever happening. If no spare coach can be provided, the train should be cancelled.

Thats how these things work, right?

 

[Starmill]

As for people who dump their bags in the wheelchair space, I fully believe we should throw their bags off the train at the station, possibly even without telling them.

If they fail to realise, clearly these items have been left unattended, and the police should be called

 

[table38]

If they fail to realise, clearly these items have been left unattended, and the police should be called

I miss the old days, when you could see an unattended bag and think to yourself - "I'm having that"

 

[WSW]

As many of you know the 455 trains from Clapham Junction - Waterloo are extremely busy during morning rush hour, to the extent there is only somespace by the door. This morning a wheelchair user was truing to board but there was no physical space. The was trying for at least 30 mins until she left the platform.

Does this happen on other lines?

And that is another reason why we don't use trains when we have our wheelchair-using son with us.

Quite often, the stations and trains (and buses for that matter) are simply not suitable for wheelchair-users, despite the claims of the train operators and the government. Yes a lot of money has been spent on improvements but it is not suitable (for us).

So we simply don't use trains and buses. I'm not complaining (at least not here) and I'm just stating the situation for us and our solution to that situation.

Now if you'd like me to start on the most unhelpful Motability scheme...

Steve

 

[trainophile]

Not sure I'd want to be in a wheelchair on a rammed train, with all those backsides in my face!

Not with particular reference to this discussion, but I sometimes wonder whether the equalities thing has gone a bit too far. I noticed the other day that both the external ATMs at the NatWest bank I use are set about 3 feet off the ground, thus very awkward for 'standing' customers to use without almost crouching to see the screen. One disabled-friendly one = fine, but both of them... :-?.

 

[orpine]

Yes it is very common around that time for only half of the people waiting on the platform to get on.

I think the issue with this is that the other people will be able to cram onto the next train (or the one after). A wheelchair user will always be at a disadvantage because: They "push" as well; they're much bigger. As such I figure they'd likely have to wait for the overcrowding to subside before being able to board.
So a wheelchair would be a massive disadvantage and should be accomodated for. Ask station staff to assist?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

One disabled-friendly one = fine, but both of them... :-?.

Maybe they plan on having more kids as customers! The little blighters have phones when they're toddlers; I'm sure they get bank cards too.

 

[Trog]

As for people who dump their bags in the wheelchair space, I fully believe we should throw their bags off the train at the station, possibly even without telling them.

You would then probably be responsible for looking after said bags, and returning them to their owners. As to deprive a person of their property with the intention of not returning it is almost the definition of theft.