Wheelchair Spaces on Trains

[Thumper Bill]

All new trains and future trains have to meet DDA compliance by 2020 which allows for total acess for wheelchair users, OK, right enough, but will that lead to a situation that exists on busses whereby disabled people that do not need a wheelchair have a problem finding a seat because of an over enphasis on mostly nonexistant wheelchair users?

 

[Manchester77]

All new trains and future trains have to meet DDA compliance by 2020 which allows for total acess for wheelchair users, OK, right enough, but will that lead to a situation that exists on busses whereby disabled people that do not need a wheelchair have a problem finding a seat because of an over enphasis on mostly nonexistant wheelchair users?

Most wheelchair areas I've seen have tip up seats there as well and pushchair people (mums) use them with buggys

 

[Thumper Bill]

Most wheelchair areas I've seen have tip up seats there as well and pushchair people (mums) use them with buggys

Pushchair people (mums)! Well blow me down, I often wonderd what they were called, did you know that them flappy squakey things in the sky are called birds and that them woof woof things on bits of string are called dogs also.

 

[WSW]

All new trains and future trains have to meet DDA compliance by 2020 which allows for total acess for wheelchair users, OK, right enough, but will that lead to a situation that exists on busses whereby disabled people that do not need a wheelchair have a problem finding a seat because of an over enphasis on mostly nonexistant wheelchair users?

Your scenario and question about on "busses" (sic) already exists...

The compliance will not allow for total access as it is centred around the current dimension limits so for a good many wheelchair users there will be no change from 2020. That is, no access to buses or trains for those folks. A great opportunity to amend the restrictions is being missed.

Steve

 

[Kneedown]

Pushchair people (mums)! Well blow me down, I often wonderd what they were called, did you know that them flappy squakey things in the sky are called birds and that them woof woof things on bits of string are called dogs also.

"Pushchair people" may just as easily be Dad's, or Granny's or Uncle's or (If you live in Bulwell) this week's boyfriend/DNA donor.

 

[Lewisham2221]

All new trains and future trains have to meet DDA compliance by 2020 which allows for total acess for wheelchair users, OK, right enough, but will that lead to a situation that exists on busses whereby disabled people that do not need a wheelchair have a problem finding a seat because of an over enphasis on mostly nonexistant wheelchair users?

DDA also sets out requirements for 'priority seating' in each carriage (or towards the front of a bus), which must, amongst other things, have additional legroom, face forwards or backwards (not sideways) and must not be a tip-up type seat.

 

[AndrewP]

It is a huge misconception that wheelchairs are the be all and end all of disabled people. There are as many different needs as there are people.

Although it is rare in my experience to see a wheelchair on a train it is even more rare to see an empty wheelchair space - they are used for pushchairs, bikes, luggage and standees so they are actually quite useable all the time - something I would have not thought of before they were introduced.

Interesting to compare accessibility and what we consider normal and 'so what' now with the late 90s when DDA first came in. It is amazing what turned out to be 'reasonably practicable' but there is still a way to go.

 

[Dave1987]

I feel the biggest problem is when the legislation was brought in the size of wheelchairs has increased dramatically. The railways will always do as much as is practical to help the railway be accessible but it would cost millions to make it completely accessible.

 

[Surreyman]

Your scenario and question about on "busses" (sic) already exists...

The compliance will not allow for total access as it is centred around the current dimension limits so for a good many wheelchair users there will be no change from 2020. That is, no access to buses or trains for those folks. A great opportunity to amend the restrictions is being missed.

Steve

Steve, don't understand your post, if I read you correctly you seem to be saying that people with wheelchairs exceeding the 'current dimension limits' can't access DDA compliant buses/trains?
Can you explain?

 

[Lewisham2221]

Steve, don't understand your post, if I read you correctly you seem to be saying that people with wheelchairs exceeding the 'current dimension limits' can't access DDA compliant buses/trains?
Can you explain?

Basically, DDA requirements for wheelchair access are based around allowing access for wheelchairs with specific maximum dimensions. If your wheelchair is larger than these dimensions, there is a good chance that you won't physically be able to board a bus or train with it. AFAIK the dimensions are based on an 'average' manually propelled wheelchair - one of those that has to be pushed by somebody or that the wheelcahir user propells using the back wheels - although in the past few years the number of people using larger, battery powered wheelchairs seems to have increased.

 

[route:oxford]

Basically, DDA requirements for wheelchair access are based around allowing access for wheelchairs with specific maximum dimensions. If your wheelchair is larger than these dimensions, there is a good chance that you won't physically be able to board a bus or train with it. AFAIK the dimensions are based on an 'average' manually propelled wheelchair - one of those that has to be pushed by somebody or that the wheelcahir user propells using the back wheels - although in the past few years the number of people using larger, battery powered wheelchairs seems to have increased.

Then surely you choose a wheelchair that meets the "standard" dimensions?

It's a bit like when you buy a car, you make sure that it fits in the garage (particularly if you live in a city like Oxford where parking is at a premium) before you commit.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Then surely you choose a wheelchair that meets the "standard" dimensions?

It's a bit like when you buy a car, you make sure that it fits in the garage (particularly if you live in a city like Oxford where parking is at a premium) before you commit.

Yes, I agree.

 

[Qwerty133]

DDA also sets out requirements for 'priority seating' in each carriage (or towards the front of a bus), which must, amongst other things, have additional legroom, face forwards or backwards (not sideways) and must not be a tip-up type seat.

xc 170s next to the cab in the standard end has 2 sideways facing priority seats. and what seats on EMT 153s have more than 2milliemeters of legroom

 

[Lewisham2221]

xc 170s next to the cab in the standard end has 2 sideways facing priority seats. and what seats on EMT 153s have more than 2milliemeters of legroom

EMT 153's aren't DDA compliant...

 

[mumrar]

DDA also sets out requirements for 'priority seating' in each carriage (or towards the front of a bus), which must, amongst other things, have additional legroom, face forwards or backwards (not sideways) and must not be a tip-up type seat.

xc 170s next to the cab in the standard end has 2 sideways facing priority seats. and what seats on EMT 153s have more than 2milliemeters of legroom

XC 170s have 2 seats in the central seating section of all carriages and the carriage with the DDA compliant toilet has 5 fold up seats (or should have, in practise they vary between 5 and 0!).

 

[WSW]

Then surely you choose a wheelchair that meets the "standard" dimensions?

Sorry it's not the same at all. We cannot "choose" a wheelchair that meets the "standard" dimensions because our son could not possibly sit in one. Sadly those in authority also show considerable lack of understanding of the subject.

Steve

 

[Lewisham2221]

XC 170s have 2 seats in the central seating section of all carriages and the carriage with the DDA compliant toilet has 5 fold up seats (or should have, in practise they vary between 5 and 0!).

My mistake about the side facing seats, mixing the bus and train legislation. The tip up seats definitely don't count as priority seating though. The regulations can be found in the following pdf:

technical specification

 

[Dave1987]

Sorry it's not the same at all. We cannot "choose" a wheelchair that meets the "standard" dimensions because our son could not possibly sit in one. Sadly those in authority also show considerable lack of understanding of the subject.

Steve

In all fairness some wheelchairs and mobility scooter are quite big. For some of them it would require half a coach lengths worth of space to get two of them on. Where do the rolling stock leasing companies draw the line?

 

[jon0844]

"Pushchair people" may just as easily be Dad's, or Granny's or Uncle's or (If you live in Bulwell) this week's boyfriend/DNA donor.

I always take over pushchair pushing duties whenever I can, just as I demand to take 'ownership' of controlling and navigating the supermarket trolley.

 

[WSW]

In all fairness some wheelchairs and mobility scooter are quite big. For some of them it would require half a coach lengths worth of space to get two of them on. Where do the rolling stock leasing companies draw the line?

I think your example is a tad over the top.

But is it fair to ban travel for someone because their wheelchair is "too long" by 7cm?

The wheelchair we had in 1990 was actually longer than the current one and yet back then we travelled all over the rail network without any problem whatsoever. Nowadays, the train companies, including some heritage railways, hide behind "the regulations" instead of doing their best for all prospective passengers.

The line, if we have to have one, could be drawn more realistically than the current shambolic, ill-researched one.

Steve

 

[Lewisham2221]

I think your example is a tad over the top.

But is it fair to ban travel for someone because their wheelchair is "too long" by 7cm?

The wheelchair we had in 1990 was actually longer than the current one and yet back then we travelled all over the rail network without any problem whatsoever. Nowadays, the train companies, including some heritage railways, hide behind "the regulations" instead of doing their best for all prospective passengers.

The line, if we have to have one, could be drawn more realistically than the current shambolic, ill-researched one.

Steve

Many oversized wheelchairs can actually still be accommodated though. Whilst I understand your point, and agree with making public transport more accessible, the line has to be drawn somewhere. With all due respect, one has to wonder how much the majority of the travelling public can be inconvenienced in order to accommodate a small minority of passengers.

 

[route:oxford]

Sorry it's not the same at all. We cannot "choose" a wheelchair that meets the "standard" dimensions because our son could not possibly sit in one. Sadly those in authority also show considerable lack of understanding of the subject.

Steve

Then choose a non-standard dimension one that fits within the standard envelope?

What is the minimum sized accessory that your child can be accommodated by?

 

[WSW]

Many oversized wheelchairs can actually still be accommodated though. Whilst I understand your point, and agree with making public transport more accessible, the line has to be drawn somewhere. With all due respect, one has to wonder how much the majority of the travelling public can be inconvenienced in order to accommodate a small minority of passengers.

It's ironical that travel was easier before regulations.

By the way, I'm sure my son would swop any of the majority's "inconvenience" (could you give examples?) rather than have his disability. I guess if the majority are not to be inconvenienced (bless 'em) the "small minority" (?) will never be treated as equal.

Steve
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Then choose a non-standard dimension one that fits within the standard envelope?

What is the minimum sized accessory that your child can be accommodated by?

I refer you to my earlier comment. The "standard envelope" is simply too limiting.

Please. It's a wheelchair - without which mobility is not possible - not an "accessory". As I said before the chair is 1270mm long. It's not a lifestyle choice it's a lifeline necessity.

And my "child" is 42 years old. Does he not deserve the same opportunities as the rest of us?

Steve

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Then choose a non-standard dimension one that fits within the standard envelope?

What is the minimum sized accessory that your child can be accommodated by?

There is no standard envelope. Some people may require wheelchairs to carry large amounts of heavy equipment for them. Are you seriously suggesting that you would tell some disabled people that they can't travel by train unless they get rid of their medical equipment?

 

[Lewisham2221]

It's ironical that travel was easier before regulations.

By the way, I'm sure my son would swop any of the majority's "inconvenience" (could you give examples?) rather than have his disability. I guess if the majority are not to be inconvenienced (bless 'em) the "small minority" (?) will never be treated as equal.

Steve
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I refer you to my earlier comment. The "standard envelope" is simply too limiting.

Please. It's a wheelchair - without which mobility is not possible - not an "accessory". As I said before the chair is 1270mm long. It's not a lifestyle choice it's a lifeline necessity.

And my "child" is 42 years old. Does he not deserve the same opportunities are the rest of us?

Steve

In what way was travel easier before? Could you expand?

I apologize if I've caused any offence, that certainly wasn't my intention, so I find the "bless 'em" comment is somewhat unnecessary. As for an example inconvenience, a non-DDA compliant 1990's Dennis Dart 9m bus could take 35 seats. A modern DDA compliant 8.8m Dennis Dart can only take 29 seats. Depending on the way the bus is configured internally, this number reduces further when a wheelchair is on board. That's a quite considerable drop in seating capacity.

 

[455driver]

Buses have limits on the size and weight of wheelchairs as well but at least the railways will let you use an electric scooter, buses wont.

It will never be practical to enable everyone to use the railways, try turning up with a wheelchairs at many (supposedly superior) networks in Europe.

 

[90019]

Buses have limits on the size and weight of wheelchairs as well but at least the railways will let you use an electric scooter, buses wont.

Our buses are limited to 300kg, which is the SWL of the ramp. The size limit is just whether it'll fit or not.

 

[455driver]

And that 300kg includes the passenger.

 

[WSW]

In what way was travel easier before? Could you expand?
I apologize if I've caused any offence, that certainly wasn't my intention, so I find the "bless 'em" comment is somewhat unnecessary. As for an example inconvenience, a non-DDA compliant 1990's Dennis Dart 9m bus could take 35 seats. A modern DDA compliant 8.8m Dennis Dart can only take 29 seats. Depending on the way the bus is configured internally, this number reduces further when a wheelchair is on board. That's a quite considerable drop in seating capacity.

Before it was possible to turn up at a station buy a ticket and board a train. Just like it is for the majority of people now. When size restrictions were brought in rail travel became impossible - in reply to our question about travel, all three TOCs serving our local station are "unable to accommodate us".

Thanks for an example of how the majority are inconvenienced. I guess you are saying the bus might be full and that some of the majority might have to wait for the next bus or the one after that? Well welcome to our world...

Steve

 

[jopsuk]

Buses have limits on the size and weight of wheelchairs as well but at least the railways will let you use an electric scooter, buses wont.

You can, if you have a permit (for which you have to pass a test) and the scooter is one of these- more details here