Wheelchair passenger not allowed to board

[ukrob]

Difficult questions, been caught out, answers not forthcoming, waffling about other matters, replying to people who agree with you about other things, it is just as if it is Digital Spy.

Yorkie, he doesn't need a ticket I believe, he has a pass or something similar.

 

[Anvil1984]

Simple question AGAIN

When was the last time you used a class 142 train from Manchester to Guide Bridge

Yorkie, GM concessionary holders get free travel in the GMPTE area no need for a ticket on this journey

 

[Lampshade]

He was on his way back from Doncaster having picked up something he'd bought on eBay, hence jonmorris's somewhat legendary reply on DS.

 

[jimrbrobinson]

Apologies for off-topic...

Comply: Meet specified standards.

Instate: Set up in position; install or establish.

My role on the working group involves both. The standard set are those defined by the requirements of the Disability Discrimination Act. The working group evaluates issues such as access to premises, safety in an emergency situation, suitability of facilities within premises and solutions to aid correcting any shortcomings identified in these areas. I have involved in planning for evacuation / safety for example in the event of a fire where persons with impaired mobility are on upper floors and unable to exit because, of course, lifts are not to be used in the event of a fire. I am involved in everything from signage and braille for visually impaired people to planning for major structural works to support installation of aids such as ramps and lifts.

 

[tonyaran]

Gong back to the question when was the last time you alighted a class 142 at Guide Bridge prior to the incident

I believe earlier that same day from Guide Bridge. I also used it a few time the week prior.

And where does the money come from to pay for this line? Or the staff that would be required to cover it 24-hours a day up and down the country on the off-chance that a disabled customer might call? I'm sorry but you are being totally unrealistic. It is not unreasonable to be expected to make a local-rate phone call to contact any organisation's general customer services section and then can and do relay information to the people on the ground. Many companies / organisations don't even have a freephone or local-rate call line. It's a normal local number with a local prefix.

The rail network is private and not government funded therefore it would be in their best interest to do something like this jointly with all the other rail networks. Together, all of the rail companies, could easily afford to set-up this. Only one person is required at the other end of the phone as demand will be low. Membership to this service should paramount so not to be abused. A person calls up with his/her membership number, that is validated, details of assitance are taken, and then forwarded onto station staff on their walkie-talkies. It isnt that difficult to set up once you think about it.

I have a couple of questions:

Were you on your outward or return journey, or was it a single journey?

If it was your outward or you were doing a single journey, I guess you would have gone to the ticket office to buy a ticket? When there, did you mention to someone that you would require assistance, or did they inform you who you should seek for assistance?

14:28hrs - took train from Guide Bridge to Piccadilly
16:20hrs - took train to Doncaster from Piccadilly
19:59hrs - arrived back at Piccadilly from Doncaster

 

[Anvil1984]

And when was the last time you used a service FROM Manchester to Guide Bridge using a class 142

 

[yorkie]

So, basically, we have someone who is able to be accommodated on the 2048 train from Manchester to Guide Bridge, free of charge, yet who throws a major wobbler over not being able to get the 2036, a saving of 12 minutes.

The headlines should be "Disabled passenger delayed by TWELVE minutes!" oh, but wait, that wouldn't be a major news story would it?:roll:

I believe Tony has acted in a manner that many will believe was unreasonable; he admits to knowing it was a 12 minute wait for the next train, yet acted as if he was being denied access to the last train of the day! He had a right to be disappointed, but the reaction was taken to an extreme level.

However staff should act professionally when presented with challenging behaviour, and deal with the customer politely but firmly, making it totally clear that that particular type of train cannot be used for complicated reasons, and if the customer is unhappy with the reasons or wants further explanation, to contact Customer Services, and that another train is available shortly, and give them instructions on how to make arrangements to board that train (despatch staff could offer to take him to the platform, for example).

 

[Lampshade]

I believe earlier that same day from Guide Bridge. I also used it a few time the week prior.

14:28hrs - took train from Guide Bridge to Piccadilly

How could you have done? The 14:28 is a Hadfield service and would have been a class 323.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I do not agree with you, i was making observations. You jumped to conclusions and he is now suspended. Don't presume he is lazy you had no idea what thoughts were going through his head about instructions and training he may have recieved from people higher up.
You accused him of very nasty things without giving him chance to explain/defend or anyone else to defend him before blogging youtube and media, as most will jump on your side after the media's *careful(*cough* bias )* selection of footage

 

[EM2]

Only one person is required at the other end of the phone as demand will be low...

You think? On an average day, we deal with between forty and sixty assistance jobs (less at the weekend). At very busy periods, especially just before and just after Christmas, we deal with three times that amount.
And that's just one (admittedly pretty big) station.

 

[tonyaran]

And when was the last time you used a service FROM Manchester to Guide Bridge using a class 142

Twice in the week prior to the incident.

 

[Anvil1984]

Twice in the week prior to the incident.

Dates and approximate times please if it only happened a couple of weeks ago you'll know. If that is the case and a 1 piece ramp was used then they'll need to be complaints put in

 

[tonyaran]

How could you have done? The 14:28 is a Hadfield service and would have been a class 323.

I wrote 'I believe' - not 'I am certain'. You cant expect me to rememebr everything, do you? There will be cctv to back me up where required. But, again, this is irrelevant.

 

[yorkie]

I believe earlier that same day from Guide Bridge. I also used it a few time the week prior.

From Guide Bridge uses a different platform. The problem is the combination of the specific platform at Guide Bridge and the type of train.

 

[Anvil1984]

Well you stated the time you travelled not us, if it was a day like that I'd expect you would know. Or does that not suit the story and you did not say I believe to the train times

 

[jimrbrobinson]

I wrote 'I believe' - not 'I am certain'. You cant expect me to rememebr everything, do you? There will be cctv to back me up where required. But, again, this is irrelevant.

And yet you are absolutely and catagorically certain that it is a Class 142 train that has been used not any other vaguely similar-looking class on other occasions? The excellence of your memory seems dubiously selective. And yes the CCTV is irrelevant as you know full well that it is highly unlikely that anyone here would have authority to access it.

 

[EM2]

And when was the last time you used a service FROM Manchester to Guide Bridge using a class 142

Twice in the week prior to the incident.

In which case, you MUST have used a two-part ramp. Yet earlier in this thread you say that you don not recall having used one, and if you did it was a long time ago.

 

[yorkie]

I wrote 'I believe' - not 'I am certain'. You cant expect me to rememebr everything, do you? There will be cctv to back me up where required. But, again, this is irrelevant.

It is relevant because it appears that you do not accept that there is an issue with using a ramp from a specific type of train to a specific platform at Guide Bridge?

So far the only example you have given is of a different type of train, from a different platform, that does not present the same challenge that you and the guard would have encountered on the 2036 from Manchester Piccadilly.

The 2048 from Manchester Piccadilly is a more accessible train, of the type you caught that morning.

 

[tonyaran]

I do not agree with you, i was making observations. You jumped to conclusions and he is now suspended. Don't presume he is lazy you had no idea what thoughts were going through his head about instructions and training he may have recieved from people higher up.
You accused him of very nasty things without giving him chance to explain/defend or anyone else to defend him before blogging youtube and media, as most will jump on your side after the media's *careful(*cough* bias )* selection of footage

As your have wrote in a 'gloves-off' attitude then I can make a personal statement about the guard and his attitude.

Personally, I believe he was too lazy to get the ramp for me. There was a ramp there, it is there to be used in these circumstances. If it was a 2 part ramp then still it was there to be used.

There was no notice or warning of problems either at Piccadilly or Guide Bridge. And as the next train was 12 minutes from this one's departure, the guard wanted the next person to do the job.

Its something you get frequently with black cab taxis. They delibertly do not stop for you, or not take your job over the phone, because they will have to get out of the taxi to put the ramp down. So they will leave it to the next guy. That is what this guard has done.

He had many chances to tell me what was the reason but he did not want to. Why. Because he had no valid reason. The fact I went to customer services and they also said the guard should put the ramp down, means that there was no problem.

Someone being lazy on a job when there are millions eager to go into employment is just not good enough. I hate that attitude and I will not stand for it.

The guard must have thought I would just sit back and wait twenty two minutes for the next train. He never envisaged something like this and was astonished when I took my phone out.

The second official could have told me the problem, but he was too busy chatting on the walkie-talkie to give me any notice.

Both started pointing fingers at me as if I was a naughty child - and that too in front of other passenger who were smirking. The guard was embarking other passengers with smiles on board the train yet her was refusing me a ramp.

He was walking away from me purely because I was in a wheelchair. He would not have walked away from an able bodied person in such a way.

I would have taken the next train had the guard not been so arrogant towards me.

He will think twice the next time he comes in contact with a person in a wheelchair, and so will other workers in public transport employment.

This has gone far enough and we will not tolerate such discrimination any more.

I am sorry but those here that think I am at fault have a shock coming their way, and will be eating their words soon.

And that is all I have to say on this matter. Any further question you can pm me.

Thanks.

 

[Anvil1984]

Discrimination, come off it, you have failed to answer any of the detailed questions, you have been certain about things then changed them from forum to forum, question to question. If you can't answer truthfully then you will only worsen your cause. Some of your answers may also go to Northern Rail management dealing with this and not find you a trustworthy character as a result. Think very carefully about what and where you post in future

 

[jimrbrobinson]

"I would have taken the next train had the guard not been so arrogant towards me.

He will think twice the next time he comes in contact with a person in a wheelchair, and so will other workers in public transport employment.

This has gone far enough and we will not tolerate such discrimination any more.

I am sorry but those here that think I am at fault have a shock coming their way, and will be eating their words soon."

I sincerely hope and pray that Northern Rail's legal department and those of the Guard's union are monitoring the various comments and statements on various sites as part of the investigation, because I think Mr. Khaliq's last post shows the truest light yet on the incident and goes a fair way to explaining the behaviour and body language of the staff in the face of, I suspect, provocation.

 

[Lampshade]

Well a lot of that is news to me, not mentioned in all 99 pages of the DS thread.

 

[jimrbrobinson]

Possibly about once every six to eight months or so I encounter a disabled person who comes across exactly how Mr. Khaliq has presented himself here - IMHO belligerent and having a go at the able bodied for basically not be disabled. They probably represent less than 0.1% of all disabled people, but make me question at times why I bother giving between 6 and 10 hours a WEEK of my free time, unpaid, to the DDACWG. All I can say is thank God for the other 99.9% who make it more than worthwhile.

 

[jon0844]

He will think twice the next time he comes in contact with a person in a wheelchair, and so will other workers in public transport employment.

This has gone far enough and we will not tolerate such discrimination any more.

I am sorry but those here that think I am at fault have a shock coming their way, and will be eating their words soon.

Thank goodness I know that my suspicions were right all along. I don't have to fear that I might have misjudged someone.

I actually sympathise with you about all the examples you've mentioned of discrimination that I have no doubt you've had to suffer (although, for the record, able-bodied people are discriminated against by some cab drivers too, based on where they want to go, how they are dressed or even the colour of their skin) - but you've lost the plot now.

This isn't about actual discrimination, this is about you wanting to get that train at ANY COST even when it's so obvious that the train is NOT ALLOWED to deploy a 2-part ramp at Guide Bridge in that direction. You weren't allowed and you took it far too personally, getting angry with the guard and not the rail company (who could have given an explanation and apology as appropriate). At the time, I fully accept you'd feel belittled by being told a train couldn't carry you, and may not accept or fully understand the reason, and why should you? Joe Public doesn't have any real need to know all about different train classes and restrictions at individual stations. But, this was for finding out afterwards through the normal channels - and then maybe speaking to some local charities to try and bring about a change, by getting rid of these old trains ahead of 2020.

The probable reason the guard ignored you was because you threw a camera in his face (which may be legal to do, but was rude and bound to inflame tension, even before mentioning how someone else got sacked) and he'd obviously explained this fact to you before you started filming, as I can't see why he'd just decided to blank you if he's helped you before.

He wasn't as professional as he might have been, agreed, but the wording in this last post makes it quite clear you DO want him sacked - but only now you've been heavily criticised have you panicked and said you don't.

Thing is, if he had really ignored you and pointed at you, and had all the other passengers laughing at you, I'd have stuck to my guns and said without any shadow of a doubt that he should be sacked. I mean, why defend him if he really did do what you said? If we saw all the footage (I accept it doesn't likely exist before the video starts), or the guard owned up, you'd have 100% support. So, I conclude that it didn't quite happen like that, and you also cut the video short (which you shouldn't have done as you agree that video filming is a good 'weapon') because the lady at the end was actually helping - and for your video to cause maximum outrage, it could only show anything where you weren't being helped.

There's no point in trying to say he should be given some training and filmed with you shaking hands - when you've published a video that has seen him getting death threats. Because of this he may never be able to work in a public facing job ever again.

 

[PB1966]

Its something you get frequently with black cab taxis. They delibertly do not stop for you, or not take your job over the phone, because they will have to get out of the taxi to put the ramp down. So they will leave it to the next guy. That is what this guard has done.

I have joined here to answer this (although it looks very nice here!)

Have you ever stopped to think there is a reason why these drivers can't take you? The reason being an electric wheelchair like yours has to be securely fixed into the vehicle, both for your safety and any other passengers and amazingly for the drivers safety. This I am certain about because my husband is a taxi driver and he underwent training to make sure he understood how to fix wheelchairs like yours into vehicles before taking children to school via minibus.

Have you ever stopped to think that is why a firm won't take your booking? Because they do not have a vehicle that is suitable for you to travel in? No, it's easier to blame the taxi driver and the firm isn't it, same as the guard in this incident.

Just say the worst happened and there was an accident, what do you think would happen? Your life would be in danger due to your wheelchair not being secure and also your fellow passengers would be as well. Seems a little different now doesn't it?

I'm not saying all taxi drivers are angels ~ believe me I know most of them aren't, but it infuriates me to see statements like this being made with no knowledge of the reasons why they are being told no, in fact I would go so far as to say you have been told this and refused to believe it.

You know what, at first I felt sorry for you, even after reading through the thread on DS, but after the posts you have made on here ~ no way do I feel sorry for you, my sympathy is with the guard in this incident.

 

[jimrbrobinson]

Welcome PB1966

And in case people weren't aware:
http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=1333391&page=99

The thread on DS has been reopened at 23:55 on 28/08/10 having been moved from the advice section to another area at the OP's request.

 

[CarterUSM]

Bestof British luck Tonyaryan, i think you're going to need it.

 

[jon0844]

The thing is, everyone can be discriminated against - it's not exclusive to people in a wheelchair or some other disability, including those that aren't immediately obvious. Look at all the problems in our society, which go way beyond those in a wheelchair.

I can see how being told that everyone else can travel now, but you'll have to wait 12 minutes until you can, could be upsetting - but it's the way it is, sadly, because of that train not being suitable. Whatever you say, you clearly haven't use that train to go to Guide Bridge, even if you have the other way (but now your unclear memory makes it very probable you haven't that way either, having used Class 323 trains instead).

It was mentioned that even without a booking, a wheelchair user would have priority and have to force other passengers off. I'm pretty sure that isn't the case, and I'm not sure that should be the case. Surely if you've booked you get a space, but if not then it's first come, first served. We want equality right?

 

[EM2]

How are the wheelchair spaces on a 142 designed?
Are they like many of the 319s, where there are seats there but they can be tipped up out of the way, or are they a dedicated space, as on 222s?

 

[Anvil1984]

I agree, I'd be hacked off if I was in the situation prescribed but at the end of the day the guard seems to be in the right to have refused him travel and the passenger has decided he won't take no for an answer. He has went to the media who have all been sympathetic to him as they can get something out of it but as soon as the hard questions came along (or easy ones which required the truth) he folded. Which is a shame as I wanted to have sympathy, the Class 14x (not just the 142s) are rubbish for disabled passengers and most of the Northern fleet could do with just simple things like the auto announce for when the guard is stuck at the other end of the train (remember its not just mobility impaired passengers who struggle) I wanted to say yep heres a case which we can put forward for some change but nope.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

How are the wheelchair spaces on a 142 designed?
Are they like many of the 319s, where there are seats there but they can be tipped up out of the way, or are they a dedicated space, as on 222s?

They are in the end of the train where there tip up seats / long tip up benches usually.I think you can just make it out here

http://358287487873663779-a-1802744773732722657-s-sites.googlegroups.com/site/pacerchaser/pacer-pages/pacer-page-1--class-142/IMG00050.jpg?attachauth=ANoY7cquuukQiumE0JglKMnxbcoUkiI3_Fub4xoSKONnj0Qzu3Bq9EBdlE3MOa-fidMDm2FVBw09f9ufrWhm4EIvq9WPimYo5l4Pua94YxjH-94VwSHp5l1VTOpGtcLyGJ52Ky0KackhrL8x6MoHddyMCXleVB3vaC-aobLDHy-57YYMxnJfk3PLGyu5s4gioJAdppe824HsWdOylH7bJa0MAtx9LA9GsRVCQHsx0J_k0Tn0RW_7FePyomCyFZd_g1kYYVATt85f&attredirects=0